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Post by snacky on May 23, 2014 6:01:41 GMT
Oh, Wikipedia, you always have my back! Looking purely at the article, it sounds like crime scene photography was developed much later than the mug shot (which Murdoch often puts to good use as well). Looks like I'll be checking out a book on the history of photography on my trip to the library tomorrow! I'm still thinking William AND Julia should get a chance to lecture at the first criminal forensics program in Switzerland while they are on their honeymoon. I'm sure some murder will conveniently happen while they are there. As long as William stays the hell away from Reichenbach Falls. >.>
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Post by wildhorseannie on May 23, 2014 6:09:11 GMT
Haha, yes, murder does tend to follow Murdoch, a la Jessica Fletcher from "Murder, She Wrote." And he should be fine at the Falls...as long as his friend Sir Doyle is nowhere to be seen!
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Post by snacky on May 23, 2014 6:20:43 GMT
Haha, yes, murder does tend to follow Murdoch, a la Jessica Fletcher from "Murder, She Wrote." And he should be fine at the Falls...as long as his friend Sir Doyle is nowhere to be seen! 1902 was actually one of Doyle's most prolific years. Luckily he already killed off Sherlock. XD I'm still voting for a honeymoon on the Orient Express.
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 1, 2014 23:56:35 GMT
What was the meaning of the reference to Winnipeg to Murdoch at the end of this episode? I suspect a Canadian May "get it" but this Yank is in the dark. Winnipeg, Manitoba is a lovely place from May until October. The rest of the time it is lovingly referred to as "Winterpeg"...even by the people who live there.
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Post by carco on Aug 4, 2014 17:01:22 GMT
What was the meaning of the reference to Winnipeg to Murdoch at the end of this episode? I suspect a Canadian May "get it" but this Yank is in the dark. Just saw your question Kengivens. Hope you're still reading here. As a Canadian it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what the reference meant but I'll try. Toronto likely thought it was the centre of the universe (as it does now!) so being sent off to a railway city in northwest, even with a promotion would not, in Murdoch's mind, have been a feather in his cap...er, homburg. Think of a detective in NY city in the 1890's, who after investigating "his own" and finding another NY police officer guilty of murdering an immigrant, being 'rewarded' with a promotion in a railway town in Wisconsin or Minnesota, etc. Promotion? yes.... but not necessarily putting him on the fast track to success in the police force.
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Post by Fallenbelle on Aug 8, 2014 23:57:31 GMT
William may not be fully aware of George's contributions to his career (especially as continues to take advantage of him throughout the series) but I think there's at least a little recognition there. Now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder if William brought George with him from whatever Station House he started at. The issue of Liza always intrigued me. I think you're definitely on the right track about how hard it must have been for him to get to know her and to propose. Which is exactly why I thought her death would have affected him a lot more than what they portrayed. It's like after the first season, they just forgot about her. :/ I'm just now seeing this-so excuse the late post. But, regarding Liza, I just assumed she was a girl from his church, and that the parishioners and maybe even priest helped that thing along-prompting and encouraging William when needed. Or, maybe Liza was a go-getter and prompted William into action much like Julia has done. Only, Liza was much better at it than Julia because perhaps Liza recognized it as shyness, whereas Julia was insecure and perceived William's shyness as rejection quite often. It it could also be William has been far more hesitant with Julia because she's out of his league, so to speak.
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 0:33:51 GMT
But, regarding Liza, I just assumed she was a girl from his church, and that the parishioners and maybe even priest helped that thing along-prompting and encouraging William when needed. Or, maybe Liza was a go-getter and prompted William into action much like Julia has done. Only, Liza was much better at it than Julia because perhaps Liza recognized it as shyness, whereas Julia was insecure and perceived William's shyness as rejection quite often. It it could also be William has been far more hesitant with Julia because she's out of his league, so to speak. I agree, Liza must have been from William's church. CC will have to fill us in on Liza's origins to be sure, but from the parts I read, she seemed very much as Julia is later portrayed: bold and forthright, and a political activist. If we take the book personality and transplant it to the TV show (and we did see "Liza on top" and William very pleased by that, lol), then perhaps William's initial attraction to Julia was that she reminded him of Liza. I do think William initially thought Julia was out of his league. He also may have ascended in class as he ascended in rank at Station House 4. At some point I got the impression Julia had started working together with William only a couple years before the start of the series, though, so he may have already been a detective. We know he's at least self-conscious about his clothing around the "toffs", though. Just the fact Julia is an educated woman must signal that she's some sort of aristocracy. Some of the discussion about when William was hired and the relationship with George was resolved by closer attention to the episodes. For instance, Brackenreid says that he hired William, so that nixed some theories. I'm still wondering how William had credentials for Detective and George doesn't when William doesn't have a college education either.
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Post by Hodge on Aug 9, 2014 17:12:49 GMT
I agree, Liza must have been from William's church. CC will have to fill us in on Liza's origins to be sure, but from the parts I read, she seemed very much as Julia is later portrayed: bold and forthright, and a political activist. If we take the book personality and transplant it to the TV show (and we did see "Liza on top" and William very pleased by that, lol), then perhaps William's initial attraction to Julia was that she reminded him of Liza. I do think William initially thought Julia was out of his league. He also may have ascended in class as he ascended in rank at Station House 4. At some point I got the impression Julia had started working together with William only a couple years before the start of the series, though, so he may have already been a detective. We know he's at least self-conscious about his clothing around the "toffs", though. Just the fact Julia is an educated woman must signal that she's some sort of aristocracy. Some of the discussion about when William was hired and the relationship with George was resolved by closer attention to the episodes. For instance, Brackenreid says that he hired William, so that nixed some theories. I'm still wondering how William had credentials for Detective and George doesn't when William doesn't have a college education either. When Brackenreid says he hired William he means as a detective for station house 4. William had been a constable at station house 3. In British society, and Canada was basically based on that in Victorian times, social class has nothing to do with wealth. Rather it's a combination of breeding, education and profession. In fact many aristocratic families are dirt poor. It is possible for someone from a lower class to rise up to a higher class, whilst still not having money. This is by way of a good education (William is educated by Jesuits, presumably well) and by rising up to a higher position within a profession (William is now a detective). So, whilst he still is lower in social rank than Julia he has started the climb ... even though he'll never make it any further because of his religion. He is however considered an expert within his field so that too would help within his class.
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 18:48:20 GMT
When Brackenreid says he hired William he means as a detective for station house 4. William had been a constable at station house 3. In British society, and Canada was basically based on that in Victorian times, social class has nothing to do with wealth. Rather it's a combination of breeding, education and profession. In fact many aristocratic families are dirt poor. It is possible for someone from a lower class to rise up to a higher class, whilst still not having money. This is by way of a good education (William is educated by Jesuits, presumably well) and by rising up to a higher position within a profession (William is now a detective). So, whilst he still is lower in social rank than Julia he has started the climb ... even though he'll never make it any further because of his religion. He is however considered an expert within his field so that too would help within his class. You forgot to mention the other element of "breeding": inherited title, usually attached to a piece of land somewhere in Europe! William was only educated by Jesuits through the "high school" level, and it was a Catholic education at that. I wonder how many years of "good Protestant education" George got in comparison? William is now of higher social class because he's a Detective, and can presumably dress the part on a Detective's pay, but it's a circular argument if people are normally assigned professional roles on the basis of their class rather than college education and other credentials: William was basically the same as George, and Catholic to boot. We could argue he is smarter, but he overcame a serious class barrier and the Catholic prejudice as well. Very curious how he did it! Maybe Season 8 will offer that insight! Perhaps it involved solving an important case. I don't think William will never make it any further because of his religion. While he's been held back so far, he's certainly been sucking up to the mayor in Season 7. He might find an alternative ladder to climb. As you said, he's establishing a reputation as an expert within his field. In other posts, I've become a bit worried about his level of "hubris" setting him up for a fall, Greek tragedy style.
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Post by Hodge on Aug 9, 2014 20:39:40 GMT
You forgot to mention the other element of "breeding": inherited title, usually attached to a piece of land somewhere in Europe! William was only educated by Jesuits through the "high school" level, and it was a Catholic education at that. I wonder how many years of "good Protestant education" George got in comparison? William is now of higher social class because he's a Detective, and can presumably dress the part on a Detective's pay, but it's a circular argument if people are normally assigned professional roles on the basis of their class rather than college education and other credentials: William was basically the same as George, and Catholic to boot. We could argue he is smarter, but he overcame a serious class barrier and the Catholic prejudice as well. Very curious how he did it! Maybe Season 8 will offer that insight! Perhaps it involved solving an important case. I don't think William will never make it any further because of his religion. While he's been held back so far, he's certainly been sucking up to the mayor in Season 7. He might find an alternative ladder to climb. As you said, he's establishing a reputation as an expert within his field. In other posts, I've become a bit worried about his level of "hubris" setting him up for a fall, Greek tragedy style. To me inherited title comes within breeding i.e. family. Funnily enough since I last posted I've been reading more of Vices of my Blood and it just happened to have Murdoch thinking about his education and apparently it wasn't a good one once he went to the Jesuit school. However in the series I think they mean him to have had a reasonable education enhanced by his 'curious mind'. William is a detective because Brackenreid saw his potential I'm guessing. Brackenreid doesn't like 'toffs' so that wouldn't come into his thinking when hiring someone ... may even count against them. I hadn't thought about William perhaps getting around the religion barrier via the mayor. However I still think that no matter how much he may impress the mayor he's still catholic in a Toronto run by Orangemen. I'm not so sure about hubris. Whenever someone talks about his abilities he seems to be somewhat taken aback. He does admit he's AN expert on fingermarks but not really anything else.
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 20:57:27 GMT
it just happened to have Murdoch thinking about his education and apparently it wasn't a good one once he went to the Jesuit school. However in the series I think they mean him to have had a reasonable education enhanced by his 'curious mind'. William is a detective because Brackenreid saw his potential I'm guessing. Brackenreid doesn't like 'toffs' so that wouldn't come into his thinking when hiring someone ... may even count against them. I hadn't thought about William perhaps getting around the religion barrier via the mayor. However I still think that no matter how much he may impress the mayor he's still catholic in a Toronto run by Orangemen. I'm not so sure about hubris. Whenever someone talks about his abilities he seems to be somewhat taken aback. He does admit he's AN expert on fingermarks but not really anything else. Brackenreid was still able to assess what William did at Station House 3, so there must have been some "career making" case that convinced Brackenreid that William was the man he needed as a Detective. I totally agree about the "toffs" line of reasoning. But it's interesting that both Brackenreid and William aspire to the "cultured" definition of class. Regarding hubris: several times during Season 7 William has been referred to as a "great detective", and over the past couple of seasons he's had increasing contact with the mayor, and even with the Prime Minister. He is a modest man, but he has great confidence in science and great expertise in that area - and as Gillies said, over-thinking will be his downfall. There's a story of hubris in the making here, and it's sneaking up on us because we're all distracted by the shipper arc.
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Post by Hodge on Aug 9, 2014 21:29:07 GMT
it just happened to have Murdoch thinking about his education and apparently it wasn't a good one once he went to the Jesuit school. However in the series I think they mean him to have had a reasonable education enhanced by his 'curious mind'. William is a detective because Brackenreid saw his potential I'm guessing. Brackenreid doesn't like 'toffs' so that wouldn't come into his thinking when hiring someone ... may even count against them. I hadn't thought about William perhaps getting around the religion barrier via the mayor. However I still think that no matter how much he may impress the mayor he's still catholic in a Toronto run by Orangemen. I'm not so sure about hubris. Whenever someone talks about his abilities he seems to be somewhat taken aback. He does admit he's AN expert on fingermarks but not really anything else. Brackenreid was still able to assess what William did at Station House 3, so there must have been some "career making" case that convinced Brackenreid that William was the man he needed as a Detective. I totally agree about the "toffs" line of reasoning. But it's interesting that both Brackenreid and William aspire to the "cultured" definition of class. Regarding hubris: several times during Season 7 William has been referred to as a "great detective", and over the past couple of seasons he's had increasing contact with the mayor, and even with the Prime Minister. He is a modest man, but he has great confidence in science and great expertise in that area - and as Gillies said, over-thinking will be his downfall. There's a story of hubris in the making here, and it's sneaking up on us because we're all distracted by the shipper arc. Strange that Brackenreid whilst not liking 'toffs' seems to enjoy much of what the lifestyle brings.... Can't quite figure out what William thinks about 'toffs', other than he knows he's not one, or whether he aspires to be one. If he does marry Julia though he will find himself in their class whether he likes it or not. Also he'll find himself a rich man as Julia's property will revert to him and as she's now inherited Darcy's estate presumably she's even richer. Don't think it'll change him much though.
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 22:13:45 GMT
Strange that Brackenreid whilst not liking 'toffs' seems to enjoy much of what the lifestyle brings.... Can't quite figure out what William thinks about 'toffs', other than he knows he's not one, or whether he aspires to be one. If he does marry Julia though he will find himself in their class whether he likes it or not. Also he'll find himself a rich man as Julia's property will revert to him and as she's now inherited Darcy's estate presumably she's even richer. Don't think it'll change him much though. I think Brackenreid just dislikes entitlement - toffs who assume and abuse privilege. He has nothing against recognizing merit or enjoying high culture. William appreciates progress, but he doesn't seem to be into the arts. He does try, though. His teachers thought his mind was too analytical to appreciate literature, so he read Shakespeare. When he saw Julia loved poetry, he nicked her poetry book. He attempted to show what he knew about the painting style of Rubens, if not the interpretation. He did try to learn to waltz. When Julia rolled her eyes at the idea of William acting, he tried that, too. So, he'd like to be more cultured than he is, but it's not his forte. Science, engineering, and puzzle-solving is his forte. He don't think he aspires to be higher than the professional middle class, but I think you're right about Julia bringing him into contact with higher circles. We've already been talking about what will happen to Julia's property. It's possible she will ask him to sign legal papers to allow her to retain independent property: I think both of them would be uncomfortable with William assuming Julia's fortune, whatever that may be. I do hope the show brings that issue up.
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Post by Hodge on Aug 9, 2014 22:30:57 GMT
Strange that Brackenreid whilst not liking 'toffs' seems to enjoy much of what the lifestyle brings.... Can't quite figure out what William thinks about 'toffs', other than he knows he's not one, or whether he aspires to be one. If he does marry Julia though he will find himself in their class whether he likes it or not. Also he'll find himself a rich man as Julia's property will revert to him and as she's now inherited Darcy's estate presumably she's even richer. Don't think it'll change him much though. I think Brackenreid just dislikes entitlement - toffs who assume and abuse privilege. He has nothing against recognizing merit or enjoying high culture. William appreciates progress, but he doesn't seem to be into the arts. He does try, though. His teachers thought his mind was too analytical to appreciate literature, so he read Shakespeare. When he saw Julia loved poetry, he nicked her poetry book. He attempted to show what he knew about the painting style of Rubens, if not the interpretation. He did try to learn to waltz. When Julia rolled her eyes at the idea of William acting, he tried that, too. So, he'd like to be more cultured than he is, but it's not his forte. Science, engineering, and puzzle-solving is his forte. He don't think he aspires to be higher than the professional middle class, but I think you're right about Julia bringing him into contact with higher circles. We've already been talking about what will happen to Julia's property. It's possible she will ask him to sign legal papers to allow her to retain independent property: I think both of them would be uncomfortable with William assuming Julia's fortune, whatever that may be. I do hope the show brings that issue up. Yes, William isn't really cultured, though I think he tries for Julia. He always seems to land on the theoretical side of everything he does including cultural things. I'm not sure Julia would be worried about William assuming her property. She didn't worry about Darcy getting his hands on it, lucky he died, she wouldn't have got it back with a divorce and it didnt' seem to bother her. She will have come into more money since her father died though so she wouldn't be broke. Coming into money may bother William more but as I said, it wouldn't change him ... though he may get even more suits! It seems to be what he spends his money on, he has enough of them.
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 22:43:46 GMT
Yes, William isn't really cultured, though I think he tries for Julia. He always seems to land on the theoretical side of everything he does including cultural things. I'm not sure Julia would be worried about William assuming her property. She didn't worry about Darcy getting his hands on it, lucky he died, she wouldn't have got it back with a divorce and it didnt' seem to bother her. She will have come into more money since her father died though so she wouldn't be broke. Coming into money may bother William more but as I said, it wouldn't change him ... though he may get even more suits! It seems to be what he spends his money on, he has enough of them. Julia may have had legal papers drawn up to guarantee some independent property rights with Darcy, too. But Darcy also had plenty of his own money. The situation will be strange with William, coming from nothing, and then suddenly being in charge of some fortune. I do agree it would bother William more than Julia. haha, I agree he would spend it on more suits. And they would look exactly the same! Maybe he would buy handkerchiefs, too! He can never have enough handkerchiefs to give to crying ladies! If they're married with property, William can have his own workshop/lab!
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