William, You Perv

[CosmicCavalcade]

Jul 31, 2014 20:21:48 GMT snacky said:

Jul 31, 2014 20:07:04 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

Emily really wanted to explore her 'dark cave'.

Also, really dumb question, but when did Emily and Julia start wearing so much makeup? I think maybe it started in S6 but maybe it was just a little more every season...

I phail at being in touch with my feminine Freudian metaphors, because I didn't catch that even with my *pronz glasses on* until I saw your compilation! I'm glad you were listening to the women's "yearnings" as well as the men's.

Julia was definitely wearing a lot of make up when her blond era started in Season 5. Perhaps some in Season 4, depending on her outfit.

Lol I only 'caught' that because someone had mentioned they thought there was an attraction there shortly after it originally aired.

Right, she was often dolled up with/for Darcy.

[Fallenbelle]

Jul 31, 2014 20:06:46 GMT snacky said:

Jul 31, 2014 18:46:45 GMT Fallenbelle said:

I might try writing this fic, but I haven't a clue as to titles of books/articles he would be reading to get this info.  If I'm doing it, I need actual books from the period-books on the art of love.  

At least a dozen potential fics have come up in forum chat just in the last 24 hours. My head is spinning!

Your research should be fun, and I have no doubt such books actually exist. Need any help? I have access to a major university library.

Initially, I need titles of books that were contemporary with William.  Stuff that he could actually have read! I've found some books about Victorian sexuality, and even found a site with actual Victorian porn, but I just don't think William was reading The Pearl.  

If you have suggestions, I'm open to them. 

BTW, you can read The Pearl online. I've hotlinked to it above. 

[CosmicCavalcade]

Jul 31, 2014 23:26:11 GMT Fallenbelle said:

Jul 31, 2014 20:06:46 GMT snacky said:

At least a dozen potential fics have come up in forum chat just in the last 24 hours. My head is spinning!

Your research should be fun, and I have no doubt such books actually exist. Need any help? I have access to a major university library.

Initially, I need titles of books that were contemporary with William.  Stuff that he could actually have read! I've found some books about Victorian sexuality, and even found a site with actual Victorian porn, but I just don't think William was reading The Pearl.  

If you have suggestions, I'm open to them. 

Lol I found an erotic Victorian book site when I was writing Dark Places. Interesting to know it exists but pretty useless. That's why I was so vague in the story...I couldn't seem to find anything from back then either.

[snacky]

Jul 31, 2014 23:56:12 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

Jul 31, 2014 23:26:11 GMT Fallenbelle said:

Initially, I need titles of books that were contemporary with William.  Stuff that he could actually have read! I've found some books about Victorian sexuality, and even found a site with actual Victorian porn, but I just don't think William was reading The Pearl.  

If you have suggestions, I'm open to them. 

Lol I found an erotic Victorian book site when I was writing Dark Places. Interesting to know it exists but pretty useless. That's why I was so vague in the story...I couldn't seem to find anything from back then either.

I would definitely have access to a lot more than that. It depends on whether I can poke about online or whether I'd have to haul my sorry tush up the hill to use their "electonic resources", though. I have a library card, but I have to be physically on campus to access their "electronic resources", and I'm sure that's where all the microfilm went.

[Fallenbelle]

Aug 1, 2014 3:43:42 GMT snacky said:

Jul 31, 2014 23:56:12 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

Lol I found an erotic Victorian book site when I was writing Dark Places. Interesting to know it exists but pretty useless. That's why I was so vague in the story...I couldn't seem to find anything from back then either.

I would definitely have access to a lot more than that. It depends on whether I can poke about online or whether I'd have to haul my sorry tush up the hill to use their "electonic resources", though. I have a library card, but I have to be physically on campus to access their "electronic resources", and I'm sure that's where all the microfilm went.

So far, I've found this advice for young women about to marry, but it sounds dreadful.     Julia would have had a field day with it.

depts.washington.edu/psy210/1894.html

Is tempted to write another fic where Julia discovers this in William's stash as well.

[CosmicCavalcade]

Aug 1, 2014 4:50:25 GMT Fallenbelle said:

Aug 1, 2014 3:43:42 GMT snacky said:

I would definitely have access to a lot more than that. It depends on whether I can poke about online or whether I'd have to haul my sorry tush up the hill to use their "electonic resources", though. I have a library card, but I have to be physically on campus to access their "electronic resources", and I'm sure that's where all the microfilm went.

So far, I've found this advice for young women about to marry, but it sounds dreadful.     Julia would have had a field day with it.

depts.washington.edu/psy210/1894.html

Is tempted to write another fic where Julia discovers this in William's stash as well.

I would say it's a joke but I've seen too many crazy/silly things on this blog I follow about old advice.

Reverend Smythers was apparently very deviant or untalented in the bedroom so his wife felt inspired to write whatever the hell that was.

[Fallenbelle]

Aug 1, 2014 5:24:15 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

Aug 1, 2014 4:50:25 GMT Fallenbelle said:

So far, I've found this advice for young women about to marry, but it sounds dreadful.     Julia would have had a field day with it.

depts.washington.edu/psy210/1894.html

Is tempted to write another fic where Julia discovers this in William's stash as well.

I would say it's a joke but I've seen too many crazy/silly things on this blog I follow about old advice.

Reverend Smythers was apparently very deviant or untalented in the bedroom so his wife felt inspired to write whatever the hell that was.

There was certainly something going on, that's for sure!    In the meantime, I'm going through google scholar with the search term "Victorian sex guide men".  Any other ideas for me to try after that?

[snacky]

Aug 1, 2014 4:50:25 GMT Fallenbelle said:

So far, I've found this advice for young women about to marry, but it sounds dreadful.     Julia would have had a field day with it.

depts.washington.edu/psy210/1894.html

Is tempted to write another fic where Julia discovers this in William's stash as well.

LOL what a laugh riot! Well if we're talking "the rules" for young ladies, I might have stuff lying around in my personal stash from my student days. I definitely have secondary sources on that topic. I was going to go trawling about for naughty books aimed at a male audience.

Today I read such an interesting quote by pioneering quantum theorist Max Planck (1897):

Amazons are abnormal, even in intellectual fields. In certain practical situations, for example, women's health care, conditions might be different, but in general it cannot be emphasized strongly enough that Nature itself has designated for woman her vocation as mother and housewife, and that under no circumstance can natural laws be ignored without grave damage, which in this case would appear especially in the next generation...

Yet a few years later, Planck hired Lisa Meitner as his assistant. She was the first paid female physics assistant (a professional/academic designation) in Prussia, and Planck carefully attended to her career after that, ensuring that her rank and salary were commensurable with her lab partner Otto Hahn. By the way, Otto Hahn had just hailed from the Canadian McGill University and also seems to have been a supportive collaborator with Meitner throughout her career (rather than a backstabbing rival). Because of the thin Canadian connection I had some hope of getting Murdoch Mysteries in on the ground floor of all the quantum theory fun! The book I'm reading has the most marvelous title "Faust in Copenhagen" by Gino Segre.

I hope everyone caught that this means that Julia would be perceived as an "Amazon" and Unnatural by the men milling about her!

[snacky]

Aug 1, 2014 5:35:57 GMT Fallenbelle said:

Aug 1, 2014 5:24:15 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

I would say it's a joke but I've seen too many crazy/silly things on this blog I follow about old advice.

Reverend Smythers was apparently very deviant or untalented in the bedroom so his wife felt inspired to write whatever the hell that was.

There was certainly something going on, that's for sure!    In the meantime, I'm going through google scholar with the search term "Victorian sex guide men".  Any other ideas for me to try after that?

Both Victorian sex guide and Victorian sex manual failed as library key phrases, so I think I'm missing some academic buzz phrase here. I'll let you know when I stumble across the keywords to use.

[Fallenbelle]

Aug 1, 2014 5:39:26 GMT snacky said:

Aug 1, 2014 4:50:25 GMT Fallenbelle said:

So far, I've found this advice for young women about to marry, but it sounds dreadful.     Julia would have had a field day with it.

depts.washington.edu/psy210/1894.html

Is tempted to write another fic where Julia discovers this in William's stash as well.

LOL what a laugh riot! Well if we're talking "the rules" for young ladies, I might have stuff lying around in my personal stash from my student days. I definitely have secondary sources on that topic. I was going to go trawling about for naughty books aimed at a male audience. 

I hope everyone caught that this means that Julia would be perceived as an "Amazon" and Unnatural by the men milling about her!

No, that's what I was thinking, but I was going to first locate a book/pamphlet instructing men, as I think William could approach sex from a scholarly angle- but some not too smutty porn could be good as well. I haven't read all of the stories from The Pearl, but it just seemed too smutty for William. 

[snacky]

Aug 1, 2014 5:35:57 GMT Fallenbelle said:

There was certainly something going on, that's for sure!    In the meantime, I'm going through google scholar with the search term "Victorian sex guide men".  Any other ideas for me to try after that?

Some random books.

Sex knowledge for men, including a program for sex education of the boy, by William J. Robinson (1929 - could be a very late reprint if a "classic")
Problems and principles of sex education; a study of 948 college men [by] M. J. Exner (c1915)
The debilities of our boys and the early decay of our young men - by James C. Jackson (1872)
Developing into manhood, designed for use, under adult leadership, with youths from fifteen to eighteen years of age [by] Winfield S. Hall. With "Personal thoughts" by George J. Fisher. 1911
Education in sexual physiology and hygiene; a physician's message, by Philip Zenner. 1910
Education with reference to sex - by Charles Richmond Henderson. 1909
Education with reference to sex agencies and methods by Charles Richmond H . 1909 (agencies and methods?)
Education with reference to sex pathological, economic, and social aspects -Henderson, Charles Richmond. 1909
Innocence and ignorance / M.S. Gillet ; translated, with forward by J. Elliot Ross.1917  Catholic
Marriage and the sex-problem, by Dr. F. W. Foerster ... Translated by Meyrick Booth. 1911
Pictorial review's correspondence course in sex-education [electronic resource] : a series of six talks on anatomy, physiology, hygiene, and habits / by Louis Henry Levy. 1916
Private sex advice to women. For young wives and those who expect to be married. This book was written so as to give enlightenment to those entering into wedlock so their married life will be one of happiness and pleasure. Armitage, Robert B. 1918
Prostitution and sex education. Hatch, Willard Packard. 1910
Sanity in sex, / by William J. Fielding. 1920
Sex discipline for boys in the home - by William Byron Forbush. 1914
Sex-education; a series of lectures concerning knowledge of sex in its relation to human life, by Maurice A. Bigelow 1921
Sex secrets - Armitage, Robert B. 1918
Sex training in the home; plain talks on sex life covering all periods and relationships from childhood to old age, by Winfield Scott Hall.1918
Sexual hygiene; compiled from books, articles and documents, many not hitherto published. By the editorial staff of the Alkaloidal Clinic.1902 (score! look at the date! this is also the second edition.)
The social emergency; studies in sex hygiene and morals, ed. by William Trufant Foster ...with an introduction by Charles W. Eliot. 1914
Social travesties and what they cost, by D. T. Atkinson. 1916 (about STDs)
Teaching truth. By Mary Wood-Allen. 1923
Towards racial health; a handbook for parents, teachers, & social workers on the training of boys and girls, by Norah H. March ... with a foreword by J. Arthur Thomson ... and illustrations by Jessie M. Lawson. 1919
Training of the young in laws of sex / by Rev. the Hon. E. Lyttelton.1912
What a father should tell his son - by Isabelle Thompson Smart. 1911
What a young boy ought to know / by Sylvanus Stall. 1905
When a boy becomes a man, a little book for boys, by H. Bisseker. Revised by the Council of the Medical Oficers of Schools Association of London, England. With a foreward by Edward Bok. 1911
A word to the wise ... Issued by Edward Hyatt, superintendent of public instruction. 1913
The Poison of Prudery - Walter Matthew Gallichan
The Great Unmarried - Walter Matthew Gallichan (about Celibacy!)
Victorian secrets : an anthology of Victorian erotica - edited by Davina Charleston
Ethnological and cultural studies of the sex life in England, illustrated, as revealed in its erotic and obscene literature and art; with nine private cabinets of illustrations by the greatest English masters of erotic art. Translated and edited by Richard Deniston. (I'm not clear on the original date of this, but the catalog entry makes it look like a subscription work like Burton's Arabian Nights - probably because it was so "pornographic"). Contents look very compatible with MM, and would make for hilarious fic, IMHO).
Ethical hygiene: solid facts boiled down : six live books on the laws of health : physical hygiene, mental hygiene, moral hygiene, sex hygiene, maternal hygiene, and social ethics / by E.L. Rector. (1917)

Pleasures taken : performances of sexuality and loss in Victorian photographs -  Carol Mavor

---I would just randomly Google titles you like to see if you can get more info on them, because many of them may be of Victorian provenance, but the library only owns the later edition printed by an American press, etc.

SECONDARY SOURCES
Modernism, Mass Culture, and the Aesthetics of Obsecenity - Allison Pease
Eros and modernization : Sylvester Graham, health reform, and the origins of Victorian sexuality in America -Jayme A. Sokolow
The dark angel : aspects of Victorian sexuality - Fraser Harrison
The worm in the bud; the world of Victorian sexuality - Pearsall, Ronald
The physician and sexuality in Victorian America - John S. Haller, Jr., and Robin M. Haller
Bloomsbury, Modernism, and the Reinvention of Intimacy - Jesse Wolfe.
Altered states : sex, nation, drugs, and self-transformation in Victorian spiritualism - Marlene Tromp
Slumming : sexual and social politics in Victorian London - Seth Koven
Mapping male sexuality : nineteenth-century England - edited by Jay Losey and William D. Brewer
When passion reigned : sex and the Victorians / by Patricia Anderson
The destroying angel : sex, fitness & food in the legacy of degeneracy theory, Graham crackers, Kellogg's corn flakes & American health history - John Money
Dangerous sexualities : medico-moral politics in England since 1830 - Frank Mort
Governing pleasures : pornography and social change in England, 1815-1914 / Lisa Z. Sigel.
Banishing the beast : sexuality and the early feminists - Lucy Bland
The spinster and her enemies : feminism and sexuality, 1880-1930 - Sheila Jeffreys


I thought Victorian Sex Education might be a better key phrase, but not getting much further. A little better luck with "sexuality". The library catalog entry is "sex customs". Sex Instruction worked if I didn't use "Victorian" with it. Many of the primary sources came from the "HathiTrust Digital Library".

[snacky]

I realize what you were actually going after was something more in the Red Rose "informal education" category that William might hide behind his "scientific literature" on the subject.

While there is quite a lot of "low" pornography floating about, I'm thinking what William might have would probably be more in the area of the "high porn" category...so much so that he might be the Queen of De Nile in telling himself that it ain't really pronz at all, it's scholarly subject matter. I'm pretty sure the translation of this book would have been available by subscription only, just like Burton's Arabian Nights, in order to avoid censorship.

Update: OMG - note that tribadism (sapphism) is fetishized for the male gaze here! I thought it would still be flying under the male pronz radar at this point.

Update 2: Why is Lady Chatterley in there? That's way too late. Later volume?

Therefore I thought I should add the detailed entry to this:
Ethnological and cultural studies of the sex life in England, illustrated, as revealed in its erotic and obscene literature and art; with nine private cabinets of illustrations by the greatest English masters of erotic art. Translated and edited by Richard Deniston. Bloch, Iwan, 1872-1922.

Translation of Das Geschlechtsleben in England, mit besonderer Beziehung auf London, originally published 1901-03.

Contents Book one -- Ethnological and cultural studies of the sex life in England illustrated as revealed in its erotic and obscene literature : General character of English erotica and pornography -- Rich erotic vocabulary of the English -- Highly spiced titles of erotic books -- "Droll stories" of the monks -- Coarse obscenity in the Middle Ages: Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" -- "The palace of pleasure": rare collection of 101 droll stories -- The erotic age of Shakespeare -- Shakespeare on prostitution and syphilis -- Sex life of the foremost English Rake: the Earl of Rochester -- the erotic works of the Earl of Rochester -- The greatest obscene drama in English literature: "Sodom", by the Earl of Rochester. Discovered among Harleian Manuscripts of British Museum -- Great erotic masters of England's age of debauchery -- Famous erotic novelists of the eighteenth century -- Contents of the greatest erotic poem in the English language: "The toast", by Dr. William King -- The greatest erotic novel in English literature: "Fanny Hill, or the Memoirs of a woman of pleasure" -- First English work on tribadism -- "The pleasures of love" -- Textbooks on the English art of love: the peculiar English mania for deflowering virgins -- "New Atlantis", escapades of the English aristocracy -- "Memoirs of a man of pleasure": the "masculine 'Fanny Hill'"-- "The fruit shop": the most humorous English erotic classic -- Love life of John Wilkes, the "Ugly Casanova": his notorious "Essay on woman", an obscene parody of Pope's "Essay on man" -- George Alexander Stevens: "The adventures of a speculist" -- "The pupil of pleasure": Samuel Johnson Pratt -- "The mysteries of Venus or lessons of love" -- Secret pornologic clubs in England -- Sixteen famous erotic and obscene works: 1780-1860 -- Secret sex life of Lord Byron: "Lord Byron's " suppressed works -- Edward Sellon: mad escapedes of the English Casanova: his obscene autobiographies -- "The amatory experiences of a surgeon" -- "My secret life": an encyclopaedia of fornication -- "Raped on the railway, social studies of the century" -- The "Ideal love" between two immortal English poets: Oscar Wilde and Lord Douglas -- "Ulysses", the anatomy of humanity--epoch-making American court decision -- "My life and loves" by Frank Harris--Greatest erotic autobiography in the world--his first completed manuscript on art and technique of love -- "Lady Chatterley's lover"--supreme modern work ennobling sex passion -- Famous works on flagellation--the racial English vice in the art of love -- Erotic folk lore and song -- English erotic and obscene magazines--contents of hundreds of periodicals -- Ideal sex life in English utopias: Bernard de Mandeville's revolutionary sex systems -- The greatest erotobibliomaniacs in England. Their fabulous erotic treasuries described.
Book two -- Ethnological and cultural studies of the sex life in England as revealed in its erotic and obscene art : -- Nature of erotic and obscene art -- Anthropic survey of world erotic and obscene art -- History of Aretino's "Figurae Veneris" in England -- William Hogarth: Greatest erotic artist in the eighteenth century -- Greatest erotic artist on flagellation: James Gillray -- Thomas Rowlandson: Greatest of all artists in the depiction of eroticism in England -- 107 erotic and obscene engravings by Rowlandson -- Erotic art of the Cruikshank family -- Erotic art of George Morland -- Erotic art of Richard Newton -- Erotic art in the nineteenth century -- Nudity in art -- Eroticism among the Pre-Raphaelites: Dante Gabriel Rossetti -- Edward Burne-Jones -- The erotic genius of Aubrey Beardsley -- Spread of erotic and pornographic art -- Bibliography.
Book three -- A gallery of illustrations by the foremost geniuses of English art including facsimiles of the original love letters of Frank Harris, here printed for the first time : A private cabinet of the love letters of Frank Harris -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of the Cruikshanks -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of William Hogarth -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of Thomas Rowlandson -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of James Gillray -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of William Blake -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of Richard Newton -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of Aubrey Beardsley -- A private cabinet of the erotic art of famous English artists. Illustrating the sex life in England.
Binding Gilt stamped white cloth.

The only argument against William NOT subscribing to this translation is it probably cost an arm and a leg.

Oooh, but Julia might subscribe to it.

Sorry this book is special room use only, can't check it out.

[snacky]

Aaaand just as I was closing Google Books, I spotted this:
Randiana, or Excitable Tales of the 1898

books.google.com/books?id=UL6ETuIg_6AC&pg=PT1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

[snacky]

Jul 31, 2014 18:18:21 GMT snacky said:

Jul 30, 2014 1:49:47 GMT CosmicCavalcade said:

Well you guys asked for it so here you go!

hahaha finally got a chance to watch this with the sound on. Still laughing! Thank you!

Is it just me or do the ladies seem like they are trying very hard not to crack up in their scene? I'm under the impression that they've cocked it up screwed it up caused several retakes already.

[CosmicCavalcade]

Which scene? The one with Julia and Emily or the other one(s)?
I did seem to think Jonny was close to laughing throughout the end fight scene in KFC. I'm sure there are many other points too. I like to keep a look out for changes in actors voices, to see if they have a cold or not. I do this with a lot of shows for some reason.
And something that has always annoyed me is when a character says, "Are you blushing?" But the person clearly isn't.