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Post by snacky on Jun 1, 2014 23:31:41 GMT
An article from the "Catholic Northwest Progress" in Seattle,WA dated Sept. 19/1902 refers to Pope Leo XVIII's Apostolic Constitution of 1880, quoted "divorce is a profanation of the sanctity of Christian marriage and the ruin of the very foundation of domestic society; that through it there exists only adulterous unions and never lawful marriages." It goes on to say some pretty nasty things about divorced people and concludes that "non-Catholic divorced persons are allowed to profit from their own excesses. Having learned how recently the hammer came down on Papal Infallibility, I should read up on this topic, too. There certainly was a lot of concern with defining and upholding the domestic sphere across the official religious spectrum. Now I really wish William had opened that can of worms! MM should have milked that divorce for all it was worth. I'm just evil that way.  We spent a year on Julia's social difficulties, now it's William's turn. My prediction is the "religious" issue will be in his ballcourt, and Julia will mainly be responding to it. I'm sure she will draw the line at conversion, though. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 1, 2014 23:47:08 GMT
You're probably right. Boy, I'm sorry I missed the discussion on Julia's social difficulties. I've been contemplating a thread about her colossal mistakes over time but I guess that was covered.
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Post by snacky on Jun 2, 2014 0:00:32 GMT
You're probably right. Boy, I'm sorry I missed the discussion on Julia's social difficulties. I've been contemplating a thread about her colossal mistakes over time but I guess that was covered. It's never too late! I'm sure some of what I've brought up has been discussed over the previous several years this forum has been in existence, and I certainly haven't gone back to read all the post. Something came up last night, and I had some work to do this morning, so I've been replying to earlier posts in a rather haphazard way, too. I'm sure it's hard to follow any conversation. If you have a thought on whatever, you should find the most appropriate category and just post it, duplication be darned. Ps. I like the topic of "Julia's Colossal Mistakes". She certainly has made some! |
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Post by wildhorseannie on Jun 2, 2014 0:08:22 GMT
I think the problem that MM is going to run into if they decide to tackle something like this is the view's of their fans. I know that this is not a proper board for debating the pros and cons of specific religious beliefs, but I do know that, depending on how they handled it, they could lose me as a fan if they go too far. I already have issues with certain aspects of Julia, and to continue to see William compromise his beliefs for her even further maybe too much. However, as a Protestant Christian, it may be refreshing if they choose to explore the fact that not all religion is associated with the strict dogma of the Catholic Church. I know that had William and Julia showed up at our church this morning, they would have both been welcome with open arms.
P.S. Speaking of replying to posts, I somehow keep failing to notice that a second page has been added to some threads! So, my apologies if I appear to be replying to earlier posts!
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Post by snacky on Jun 2, 2014 0:15:16 GMT
I think the problem that MM is going to run into if they decide to tackle something like this is the view's of their fans. I know that this is not a proper board for debating the pros and cons of specific religious beliefs, but I do know that, depending on how they handled it, they could lose me as a fan if they go too far. I already have issues with certain aspects of Julia, and to continue to see William compromise his beliefs for her even further maybe too much. However, as a Protestant Christian, it may be refreshing if they choose to explore the fact that not all religion is associated with the strict dogma of the Catholic Church. I know that had William and Julia showed up at our church this morning, they would have both been welcome with open arms. I understand what you are saying about TV writers passing judgment on religion, and I don't want to see that either. It is a matter that has to be handled very carefully, with a great deal of respect. I certainly wouldn't want to see William "come to understand" that his faith is "primitive" and modernity is superior to it. If he gets excommunicated, I don't want him to think of the people who did this to him as stupid: I would expect him to be in a deep state of grief. However, I would like to see MM go this route (SENSITIVELY) just because there is such great potential for drama here. If Catholic faith is at the core of William's character, than the greatest challenge for him to face, as a character, would be for him to have to choose between his faith and a moral stand on some other matter. If he chooses the moral stand, and gets excommunicated, it would be devastating, and I would expect MM to suck an arc of at least 6 episodes out of the ramifications. If he gets reconciled with the Church at the end, that would be great. (but again, I wouldn't want him to be forced to say the sun stands still in the center of the universe or anything he knows to be false). |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 2, 2014 0:24:29 GMT
Exploring religious beliefs is a razor's edge. There are legitimate points to raise on all sides but the writers are stuck with not coming down in favour of any one position without alienating one group or another. There is a much greater tolerance for interfaith marriages and divorce in practice today. However, the show has to reflect the mores and feelings of 112 years ago. The truth is that the Catholic Church was entrenched in it's position regarding interfaith marriage and divorce. As well, to consider, how great or small was the separation of church and state? Historically, it has been the Protestant groups that have practiced the greatest tolerance, openness and forgiveness. (I'm not even addressing Evangelical Christians here because they didn't migrate to Canada until much later.) I would lay odds that the writers have advanced and retreated on this issue numerous times. It really is a can of worms and I certainly don't feel that they can afford to risk alienating ANY viewers.
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Post by wildhorseannie on Jun 2, 2014 1:02:04 GMT
I think you're absolutely right, snacky, in that the religious issue would certainly provide a great deal of dramatic fodder for the show. The writers would simply have to decide if it would be worth the potential loss/discontent of viewers. They (the writers) are very talented though, and I think that they can and have wrung enough drama out of various other scenarios that they won't have to broach excommunication unless they really want to.
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Post by snacky on Jun 2, 2014 1:08:10 GMT
the writers are stuck with not coming down in favour of any one position without alienating one group or another. the show has to reflect the mores and feelings of 112 years ago. The truth is that the Catholic Church was entrenched in it's position regarding interfaith marriage and divorce. As well, to consider, how great or small was the separation of church and state? It really is a can of worms and I certainly don't feel that they can afford to risk alienating ANY viewers. While I wouldn't want viewers to be alienated, no guts no Canada Screen Awards glory. If the writers come across as "taking sides" or laying down judgments, they are definitely on the wrong track. If they let certain characters do that, it better be appropriate or illuminating for those characters - for instance when an Orangeman harasses a "Papist". The church and state aspect makes it even more interesting in historical perspective, because the problem was that a prominent church dictated state policy. This came to a head in France in debate over Renan, who wrote a historical Life of Jesus. When he was awarded an important academic chair, the Church demanded that he be removed from the government position. Scholars argued for academic freedom and Renan's contributions to the "science" of history. There was nothing in the Constitution to require Renan's removal from a State post. Yet there was immense public feeling that France was a "Catholic" country, and Renan had done something blasphemous by studying Jesus as a human being and historical figure and looking for evidences and contradictions in the Bible. A can of worms indeed. Toes were stepped on. Just about everyone was alienated. The modern secular world emerged. That's why I feel it would be a "sin" (hehe, pardon the pun) for MM *not* to go there. MM is set during the very time when this modern world is emerging from its chrysalis, and negotiating with tender religious consciences was a huge part of that emergence. Since Catholicisim has been overtly presented to us as a central part of William's character, that feature of his character should be allowed to play out, in historical context, in the show, for maximum dramatic potential. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jul 1, 2014 15:29:47 GMT
Re Julia's religious views. Although never specifically stated we all agree that she has likely followed some form of Protestantism, either actively or passively. The only specific reference to her own views Julia has made is her statement from "The Murdoch Trap" after Emily tells Julia that William is missing. Julia says "I pray that William is all right." We can speculate that her time awaiting her own hanging could have brought her thinking back around to her relationship with God ad that is what she is projecting. I don't know, it's just a thought.
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Post by snacky on Jul 1, 2014 16:08:42 GMT
Re Julia's religious views. Although never specifically stated we all agree that she has likely followed some form of Protestantism, either actively or passively. The only specific reference to her own views Julia has made is her statement from "The Murdoch Trap" after Emily tells Julia that William is missing. Julia says "I pray that William is all right." We can speculate that her time awaiting her own hanging could have brought her thinking back around to her relationship with God ad that is what she is projecting. I don't know, it's just a thought. I forgot whether it was Emily or Julia joking around in the church during Lovers in a Murderous Time. Also the fact Julia expected her father to be buried rather than cremated (you may not have gotten to this episode yet) also suggests that she has religious views. All in all, I think she regards herself as "modern and agnostic". Or maybe "church-going for the sake of social order" rather than genuine belief. Many held that view throughout the 20th century, and the clergy, when faced with the challenge of science and the persuasiveness of material progress, actively encouraged this view, just to get people to come to church. Then once the wealthy were putting money in the plate, the funds yielded by material progress were used for the pastoral/spiritual care of the flock and attending to helping the poor. I just noticed Julia wearing a professional tie in The Great Wall. It almost matched William's. It reinforced my sense that she was engaging with the material world of science and progress, and she had little use for religion. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jul 1, 2014 17:59:32 GMT
I agree that for Julia is much more of a footnote in her philosophy than science. I think it was Emily who made the suggestion that Wm and Julia should just live together when they were in the church. I'd forgotten that scene. There's also the parallel one when Julia is furious at Darcy for ripping up the divorce papers that she tells William that maybe they should just live together openly and hang the consequences.
Burial was definitely the Christian norm until recently. I got the feeling she was reflecting her father's beliefs. Obviously the statement implied that her mother had been buried.
Nowadays you can be cremated AND have your ashes buried. That's what my mom wanted and we couldn't bury her ashes until the headstone was ready (her wishes too). She`s in a churchyard too, not just a cemetery.
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Post by snacky on Jul 1, 2014 20:19:54 GMT
I agree that for Julia is much more of a footnote in her philosophy than science. I think it was Emily who made the suggestion that Wm and Julia should just live together when they were in the church. I'd forgotten that scene. There's also the parallel one when Julia is furious at Darcy for ripping up the divorce papers that she tells William that maybe they should just live together openly and hang the consequences. Burial was definitely the Christian norm until recently. I got the feeling she was reflecting her father's beliefs. Obviously the statement implied that her mother had been buried. Nowadays you can be cremated AND have your ashes buried. That's what my mom wanted and we couldn't bury her ashes until the headstone was ready (her wishes too). She`s in a churchyard too, not just a cemetery. There was a very strong anti-clerical movement at the end of the 19th century, and the beginning of the 20th century - especially in Catholic countries. The problem was that the Church was entwine with political institutions in States that were trying to define themselves as Nations, but discovering they had all these pesky multicultural issues to deal with. In a way, the Church's involvement in the World Wars really sealed it's fate in the modern world. |
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