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Post by lovemondays on Sept 23, 2014 23:07:34 GMT
Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. You know maybe William actually liked being mothered whilst sick. He's not been mothered since he was 8, perhaps it was nice to be pampered for a change. I wasn't comfortable with it, I thought the same as you but for William it was something different. I'm not sure Enid would even let her man think he was wearing the pants, she seemed like a control freak to me. Did you notice how Julia was intimidated by her on the carriage ride. My experience is that men are total babies when they're hurting. I just couldn't stand how Enid treated William like he was 8! I agree with you about Enid being a control freak. I didn't read Julia as being intimidated by Enid, rather she was deliberately stepping back because she had given up the right to fight for him. |
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Post by ziggy on Sept 23, 2014 23:50:53 GMT
I think the stumbling block in this discussion is where this episode happens within the scope of W/J's relationship. It was not long after 'Shades of Gray' so they were both still treading that dicey line between their feelings for each other and their falling out over the abortion issue (Julia's doing). William was definitely hurt (in body and soul) but wasn't willing to acknowledge how much he hurt even to his doctor, the woman he loves but is on the outs with. With respect to the needle...did you see the size of that thing? I don't blame him for making a bit of a fuss. My take is that William would have been happy to be pampered and fussed a bit over by Julia if they were together. Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. How'd I do ziggy? Excellent, lovemondays! Thank you. I understand my own point better now than I did when I first blurted it out. What can I do without you, eh? |
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Post by lovemondays on Sept 23, 2014 23:56:04 GMT
I think the stumbling block in this discussion is where this episode happens within the scope of W/J's relationship. It was not long after 'Shades of Gray' so they were both still treading that dicey line between their feelings for each other and their falling out over the abortion issue (Julia's doing). William was definitely hurt (in body and soul) but wasn't willing to acknowledge how much he hurt even to his doctor, the woman he loves but is on the outs with. With respect to the needle...did you see the size of that thing? I don't blame him for making a bit of a fuss. My take is that William would have been happy to be pampered and fussed a bit over by Julia if they were together. Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. How'd I do ziggy? Excellent, lovemondays! Thank you. I understand my own point better now than I did when I first blurted it out. What can I do without you, eh? Hehehe. My good deed for the day...check!  |
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Post by ziggy on Sept 23, 2014 23:58:51 GMT
Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. You know maybe William actually liked being mothered whilst sick. He's not been mothered since he was 8, perhaps it was nice to be pampered for a change. I wasn't comfortable with it, I thought the same as you but for William it was something different. I'm not sure Enid would even let her man think he was wearing the pants, she seemed like a control freak to me. I think William enjoyed being pampered like that in the short term. Enid did strike me as one heck of a tough cookie. I worried for William in the long term. |
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Post by lovemondays on Sept 24, 2014 0:07:39 GMT
You know maybe William actually liked being mothered whilst sick. He's not been mothered since he was 8, perhaps it was nice to be pampered for a change. I wasn't comfortable with it, I thought the same as you but for William it was something different. I'm not sure Enid would even let her man think he was wearing the pants, she seemed like a control freak to me. I think William enjoyed being pampered like that in the short term. Enid did strike me as one heck of a tough cookie. I worried for William in the long term. I knew it wouldn't last with Enid. For me it was 50/50 whether he was more attracted to Enid or the idea of being a father to the adorably precocious Alwyn. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 24, 2014 0:25:18 GMT
My experience is that men are total babies when they're hurting. I just couldn't stand how Enid treated William like he was 8! I agree with you about Enid being a control freak. I didn't read Julia as being intimidated by Enid, rather she was deliberately stepping back because she had given up the right to fight for him. I didn't like the way she was treating him despite the fact that he didn't mind and really did need to be looked after at the time, I'd rather it was Julia looking after him though. The body language in this scene was so telling. Enid sitting up straight and rigid at the front of the seat and Julia slightly hunched and sitting behind her then slumping down even further and looking down. It wasn't what was said with words, it was what was said without. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 3:59:18 GMT
Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. In a way Enid represents the hypocritical convention of "women's power": the type people would have smugly said "wears the pants" because she' domineering at home while being a "model wife" at the same time. Julia would be the opposite: she doesn't conform to the public image, but perhaps she's actually more cooperative as a partner. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 4:05:21 GMT
You know maybe William actually liked being mothered whilst sick. He's not been mothered since he was 8, perhaps it was nice to be pampered for a change. I wasn't comfortable with it, I thought the same as you but for William it was something different. I'm not sure Enid would even let her man think he was wearing the pants, she seemed like a control freak to me. Did you notice how Julia was intimidated by her on the carriage ride. I think Enid would manipulate while trying to let the man think he was in control while Julia would just be straight-forward in her opinion. Enid would probably also get whiny if the man appears indecisive, because she already slipped the decision in his pocket! I agree Enid is a control freak. I also agree that William might like some mothering when ill, but I still don't think his instinct would be to show that part of himself while he's trying to impress a woman during the courtship phase. It would undermine his masculinity. I think Enid's mothering made him nervous. On the other hand, I bet William got some super mothering after the Gillies bridge incident! |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 4:07:37 GMT
My experience is that men are total babies when they're hurting. I just couldn't stand how Enid treated William like he was 8! I agree with you about Enid being a control freak. I didn't read Julia as being intimidated by Enid, rather she was deliberately stepping back because she had given up the right to fight for him. That's what I thought, too - but that part toward the end where Julia says she knows William can take the pain made me rethink Julia's whole approach. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 4:21:34 GMT
Excellent, lovemondays! Thank you. I understand my own point better now than I did when I first blurted it out. What can I do without you, eh? Hehehe. My good deed for the day...check! After thinking about this today, for me the *philosophical* objection to the Virgin Theory (and I think this is where ziggy has a problem, too) is that "virgin William" ends up being infantilized somewhat. "Adult" and experience Julia guides William through his "first time". There's a really bad fanfic in that - almost at the level of mpreg. It's certainly not where my Virgin Theory opinions are spinning out from. So I think I'm going to revise my position yet again. Here is my current view: 1) William did find some opportunities/take some risks when he was younger. i.e., he is not technically a virgin. Besides I want to believe in FallenBelle's logging camp shenanigans. 2) As William matured, settled into regular work, and aspired toward middle class life, he became more risk averse. Once he aspired to take the civil service exams and become a detective, he did not want to risk everything he was working for on unplanned pregnancies and STDs. When he dated Liza, he probably didn't sleep with her because she was part of his plan to establish himself in the middle class. 3) In this scenario, William probably hasn't "gone all the way" since his mid-20s, and he still never slept with Julia - so he's still a "virgin" as far as sleeping with her is concerned. If William hasn't slept with Julia, I don't think he's slept with Anna. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 4:23:27 GMT
The body language in this scene was so telling. Enid sitting up straight and rigid at the front of the seat and Julia slightly hunched and sitting behind her then slumping down even further and looking down. It wasn't what was said with words, it was what was said without. I'm wondering why Julia was his personal doctor. She's the coroner. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 24, 2014 5:26:34 GMT
The body language in this scene was so telling. Enid sitting up straight and rigid at the front of the seat and Julia slightly hunched and sitting behind her then slumping down even further and looking down. It wasn't what was said with words, it was what was said without. I'm wondering why Julia was his personal doctor. She's the coroner. Because she would want to treat him personally, as a friend. She may be a pathologist but she is still a medical Dr. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 5:29:58 GMT
I'm wondering why Julia was his personal doctor. She's the coroner. Because she would want to treat him personally, as a friend. She may be a pathologist but she is still a medical Dr. Not for one last chance to see him nekkid? |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 5:53:43 GMT
Hehehe. My good deed for the day...check! After thinking about this today, for me the *philosophical* objection to the Virgin Theory (and I think this is where ziggy has a problem, too) is that "virgin William" ends up being infantilized somewhat. "Adult" and experience Julia guides William through his "first time". There's a really bad fanfic in that - almost at the level of mpreg. It's certainly not where my Virgin Theory opinions are spinning out from. So I think I'm going to revise my position yet again. Here is my current view: 1) William did find some opportunities/take some risks when he was younger. i.e., he is not technically a virgin. Besides I want to believe in FallenBelle's logging camp shenanigans. 2) As William matured, settled into regular work, and aspired toward middle class life, he became more risk averse. Once he aspired to take the civil service exams and become a detective, he did not want to risk everything he was working for on unplanned pregnancies and STDs. When he dated Liza, he probably didn't sleep with her because she was part of his plan to establish himself in the middle class. 3) In this scenario, William probably hasn't "gone all the way" since his mid-20s, and he still never slept with Julia - so he's still a "virgin" as far as sleeping with her is concerned. If William hasn't slept with Julia, I don't think he's slept with Anna. See, I think it's entirely plausible that William's never been with anyone, but there have been a few hints scattered about that allude to maybe he has gotten up to quite a bit in his past. If William spent years in a logging camp, I can't see him being a saint there (or not surviving long if he was). I would think he did some drinking, had fun with the ladies until he realized that he didn't like who he was becoming (his father perhaps) and took the civil service exam and finally did something with his education and intellect. Once on the path to middle class, he began to morph into the William we know today-cautious and very principle driven. Once a detective, he began to court Liza, and thus the adoption of the prevailing belief (of the day) that you didn't play with the types of girls you marry. Also, by this time, he was very cautious and careful, so dollymops were definitely out by this point in his life, whereas they may have featured prominently in his past. So if he does have a sexual past, it's mostly in the distant past-with the exception of Anna. I say with the exception of Anna, because I think Bristol!William might be the same as loggingcamp!William. In MI, William has forgotten who he's become, and has reverted back to the earthy, worldly man he probably was in his younger days. Even after he's remembered detective!William, he's already shown the earthier William to Anna, and she hasn't fled from him-in fact, quite the opposite-she wants him to stay. There is a connection there that he hasn't shown to anyone else. If he did sleep with Anna, I don't think it was until SotWS. In MI, he remembered just in time that there was probably someone else, and decided to be faithful to her, but in SoTWS, Anna was there, she knew all of him, and he was nursing a broken heart and probably trying to get over Julia-so he had a little fun. I ship W/J, but I'm not so rabid that I begrudge him the opportunity to find some happiness with someone else, especially since Julia married another man. This time, there was no one else to be faithful to, and he may have been testing the waters to see if he could get over Julia and find happiness with Anna. But, I suspect Anna was really attracted to "Harry" (a.k.a. Bristol!William), and while that's a part of our William, it's not who he is anymore. Thus, they didn't really have a future together. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she called him Harry at the height of passion during the act.So, I guess I believe in my duality theory because they're both plausible. Will I ever find out? Maybe things will be revealed this season that firmly state one way or the other, but perhaps it's more fun this way.  |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 6:17:58 GMT
So, I guess I believe in my duality theory because they're both plausible. Will I ever find out? Maybe things will be revealed this season that firmly state one way or the other, but perhaps it's more fun this way. IMHO, it would be an epic mistake for the show to tell us one way or the other. But that means we won't be in on very much of the honeymoon night.  William's whistling and the cat's sleeping with dogs line aside, I don't think he would have risked getting Anna getting pregnant and the larger outcome of marrying her. As much as he liked Anna, I don't think he was ready to look elsewhere yet. Sleeping with Anna would have just been "compromising" her. That's not to say there wasn't some intense comforting over Anna's near death experience, though. And Anna might have taught him a thing or two about naughty librarians that made him whistle. |
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