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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 22, 2014 17:20:56 GMT
The one opportunity to have a hint of a sexual situation was when they met at the Queens Hotel for the night but even then 'proper' William wouldn't let down his guard. That's the problem, William is just too much of a gentleman to 'compromise' Julia, e ven though she's been compromised before.... The problem here is we're not used to dealing with a socially and sexually repressed man from the 19th century and we're expecting him to deal with situations in at least a 20th century way if not 21st. William's been bombarded with Catholic dogma for many more years than he's been under the influence of Julia's modern ideas, he is making headway, give him a chance. I have to admit to liking William as more than the perfect gentleman even if it is frustrating. Yes, I'm thinking from the reading I'm doing that it's more and more possible a man just wouldn't have the opportunity. Marriage-seeking women wouldn't give it to him, and "dollymops" wouldn't be safe. William is nothing if not cautious. Even if Julia has been compromised, William is also extremely slow on figuring out how to accommodate information that doesn't fit into his existing worldview. The solution isn't necessarily to go ahead and sleep with her. I'm sure they didn't sleep together at the Queen's Hotel just because of the adultery issue. Did anyone else notice their pupil dilation in that scene, though? While I think it's supposed to show their sexual attraction, it seems kind of fake and creepy to me. Perhaps some other cues that should go with that are missing. William does have big, wide eyes in that scene, but I think that's related to nervousness at what he's about to undertake. I would think that he'd have much the same expression on his wedding night. I agree nothing happened between them at QH-and besides, isn't there something said to that fact during Julia's trial? |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 22, 2014 17:21:15 GMT
Only William knows if he's a virgin and I think if Julia suspects him to be she'll be as gentle with him as he's been with her, until she figures out for sure. That's a good point, she would be gentle with him. Still, I think that's a fair conversation to have before you get married. William doesn't like to talk about personal things and I'm not sure Julia would push him that far. Better to ease into it and figure it out for herself, it wouldn't take her long. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 22, 2014 17:23:03 GMT
William does have big, wide eyes in that scene, but I think that's related to nervousness at what he's about to undertake. I would think that he'd have much the same expression on his wedding night. It's both William and Julia: their eyes are totally black. Is it just my computer screen? It's the only scene that looks like that. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 22, 2014 17:23:56 GMT
Only William knows if he's a virgin and I think if Julia suspects him to be she'll be as gentle with him as he's been with her, until she figures out for sure. You don't think he'd let Julia know if he's been saving himself for marriage? This is where I've been trying to drag my friend Eclair into the discussion. I'd like more details on the Catholic permitted activities here. They probably have specific traditions on how to avoid sex before marriage.  I haven't talked to him since my wedding, and I doubt he's into MM, but in college, I had an uber-Catholic friend who seemed to have no issues with sex-that boy saw plenty of action. It didn't seem to bother him. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 22, 2014 17:24:40 GMT
William doesn't like to talk about personal things and I'm not sure Julia would push him that far. Better to ease into it and figure it out for herself, it wouldn't take her long. I doubt William would announce it, but it might come up if they are making out and Julia suggests taking things upstairs. I'm sure Julia knows whether it's been explicitly addressed or not. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 22, 2014 17:31:52 GMT
You don't think he'd let Julia know if he's been saving himself for marriage? This is where I've been trying to drag my friend Eclair into the discussion. I'd like more details on the Catholic permitted activities here. They probably have specific traditions on how to avoid sex before marriage. I haven't talked to him since my wedding, and I doubt he's into MM, but in college, I had an uber-Catholic friend who seemed to have no issues with sex-that boy saw plenty of action. It didn't seem to bother him. Years ago, when I still lived in the UK there was a study about Catholics and sex before marriage from the parents, may specifically have been mother's pov. They expected their sons to not be virgins when they married however their daughters to be. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. However MM is not now or in the near past, even protestants had the same views in Murdoch's time. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 22, 2014 17:31:53 GMT
I haven't talked to him since my wedding, and I doubt he's into MM, but in college, I had an uber-Catholic friend who seemed to have no issues with sex-that boy saw plenty of action. It didn't seem to bother him. Yeah Eclair has no historical consciousness either, so he's not helpful on reasons why William might remain a virgin. However he's from PH (remember the unusual hit on your story?), and they are only recently making the case for birth control there. So I would think there'd be strong interest in pre-marital alternatives coming from women. I'm wondering how far a "good girl" would go before marriage in that context. He might just say there's always black market birth control, though. Now that we're on season 3, I think he gets the context for the question. I'm really curious about he will come up with, but he doesn't have a lot of time right now between work and school. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 22, 2014 17:39:59 GMT
I haven't talked to him since my wedding, and I doubt he's into MM, but in college, I had an uber-Catholic friend who seemed to have no issues with sex-that boy saw plenty of action. It didn't seem to bother him. Years ago, when I still lived in the UK there was a study about Catholics and sex before marriage from the parents, may specifically have been mother's pov. They expected their sons to not be virgins when they married however their daughters to be. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. However MM is not now or in the near past, even protestants had the same views in Murdoch's time. Until the 17th century, the Catholic church even ran brothels to give men an outlet for their "natural outlet". Even after that, prostitution was semi-supported in Catholic countries just so the "good girls" could remain virgins. Extremely hypocritical. This is one of the propaganda points that was heavily used against Catholicism during the Protestant Reformation. Protestant hypocrisy was slightly different: they wanted ALL women to marry, so their hypocrisy is they winked at their men going to prostitutes when theoretically they believed no women should engage in prostitution and made laws against them. However, syphilis and other STDs became an increasing problem, and by the 19th century there was some concept that sexually-transmitted diseases tended to spread through prostitution. This is where I think William's prudent personality as well as his integrity in the legal profession would make him steer clear of the traditional Catholic alternatives. |
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Post by ziggy on Sept 23, 2014 0:53:32 GMT
And this frustrates me! We knew William thought about sex (various fantasies) and even a sex dream in season 6, but not with Julia, the woman he wants to marry! Why is this? It doesn't make sense to me! If you were right about the lingerie being imagined, then I think that's a clue William does have "off stage" fantasies about Julia. If the content of his past fantasies mean anything, they do a lot more in his head than they do in reality. So much so, he may even forget what they aren't doing in reality! But I do find it interesting that the basis of William's choice seemed so frankly sensual - almost primal - yet his approach to Julia has been exactly the same as his approach to Enid. We've never seen him look at Julia like he looked at Anna before he started trying to unlace her corset. He's not going after what he chose Julia for. Part of it might be because Julia brings it to him, though. Then the question is how much is she bringing to him.  As usual, my take on this is a bit different. Julia has always really been the only one available to him. She is not just in the same town with him, she works with him. He sees her everyday. When you spend that much time with someone, you are bound to love them in some way. He doesn’t even need to wait to get home after a long, tough day at work to see his loved one like most of us have to do. Besides, he admires Julia and all her accomplishments, her independence and intelligence and holds her in such high regard. Like he told Ruby, he finds her intriguing and intellectually stimulating. He could talk science and medicine with her all day every day and not remember to eat or sleep. He is mesmerized by the woman and thinks she is incredible. He is like the biggest fanboy ever! Some might call that undying love. Yet when it comes to relating to her on a romantic, personal level, he gets all tongue-tied and cerebral, almost as though he is afraid of annoying his idol. He is reduced to bowing and stuttering over his words. By the end of season 7 he was barely able to complete a sentence in her presence, and that’s when things were supposed to be smooth sailing for them. Without their work, these two will have very little to sustain a lifetime of marriage. He has had all these years to adjust himself and he has made some progress. At least he has held her in his arms, kissed and done things with her in private and he likes it. I still believe they’ve both crossed the bridge quite a number of times over the years (in TGM Julia promised him good things to come after the green fairy had gone and they had sorted out some prophylactics and I am sure she delivered on that). |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 23, 2014 1:44:49 GMT
As usual, my take on this is a bit different. Julia has always really been the only one available to him. She is not just in the same town with him, she works with him. He sees her everyday. When you spend that much time with someone, you are bound to love them in some way. He doesn’t even need to wait to get home after a long, tough day at work to see his loved one like most of us have to do. Besides, he admires Julia and all her accomplishments, her independence and intelligence and holds her in such high regard. Like he told Ruby, he finds her intriguing and intellectually stimulating. He could talk science and medicine with her all day every day and not remember to eat or sleep. He is mesmerized by the woman and thinks she is incredible. He is like the biggest fanboy ever! Some might call that undying love. Yet when it comes to relating to her on a romantic, personal level, he gets all tongue-tied and cerebral, almost as though he is afraid of annoying his idol. He is reduced to bowing and stuttering over his words. By the end of season 7 he was barely able to complete a sentence in her presence, and that’s when things were supposed to be smooth sailing for them. Without their work, these two will have very little to sustain a lifetime of marriage. He has had all these years to adjust himself and he has made some progress. At least he has held her in his arms, kissed and done things with her in private and he likes it. I still believe they’ve both crossed the bridge quite a number of times over the years (in TGM Julia promised him good things to come after the green fairy had gone and they had sorted out some prophylactics and I am sure she delivered on that). To me the answer to whether they've been lovers is in Murdoch in Ladies Wear. When Julia asks about her immodest proposal William states they "can only truly be together if they are married" and that he "won't compromise her." IMO that means he won't compromise her in any way, including sex before marriage. I do believe he compromised Anna though even though I'd like to believe the 40 yr old virgin theory. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 23, 2014 4:34:37 GMT
Without their work, these two will have very little to sustain a lifetime of marriage. He has had all these years to adjust himself and he has made some progress. So you think William needs to take Julia down off the pedestal before their relationship can even go any further than where it is now? |
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Post by snacky on Sept 23, 2014 4:40:30 GMT
To me the answer to whether they've been lovers is in Murdoch in Ladies Wear. When Julia asks about her immodest proposal William states they "can only truly be together if they are married" and that he "won't compromise her." IMO that means he won't compromise her in any way, including sex before marriage. I do believe he compromised Anna though even though I'd like to believe the 40 yr old virgin theory. You can have it both ways on that. What William thinks of as "compromising" probably comes way before actually doing the deed. |
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Post by ziggy on Sept 23, 2014 6:46:05 GMT
As usual, my take on this is a bit different. Julia has always really been the only one available to him. She is not just in the same town with him, she works with him. He sees her everyday. When you spend that much time with someone, you are bound to love them in some way. He doesn’t even need to wait to get home after a long, tough day at work to see his loved one like most of us have to do. Besides, he admires Julia and all her accomplishments, her independence and intelligence and holds her in such high regard. Like he told Ruby, he finds her intriguing and intellectually stimulating. He could talk science and medicine with her all day every day and not remember to eat or sleep. He is mesmerized by the woman and thinks she is incredible. He is like the biggest fanboy ever! Some might call that undying love. Yet when it comes to relating to her on a romantic, personal level, he gets all tongue-tied and cerebral, almost as though he is afraid of annoying his idol. He is reduced to bowing and stuttering over his words. By the end of season 7 he was barely able to complete a sentence in her presence, and that’s when things were supposed to be smooth sailing for them. Without their work, these two will have very little to sustain a lifetime of marriage. He has had all these years to adjust himself and he has made some progress. At least he has held her in his arms, kissed and done things with her in private and he likes it. I still believe they’ve both crossed the bridge quite a number of times over the years (in TGM Julia promised him good things to come after the green fairy had gone and they had sorted out some prophylactics and I am sure she delivered on that). To me the answer to whether they've been lovers is in Murdoch in Ladies Wear. When Julia asks about her immodest proposal William states they "can only truly be together if they are married" and that he "won't compromise her." IMO that means he won't compromise her in any way, including sex before marriage. I do believe he compromised Anna though even though I'd like to believe the 40 yr old virgin theory. I will have to disagree with you on this one. He did admit to Darcy that they had been lovers but that was before she met Darcy, and they weren’t even married yet. Fair enough, he didn’t touch her again once she left for Buffalo and all the time she was married and living with Darcy. What I read from his speech of not compromising her was him telling her he was not going to live with her in sin (as a married woman) until she was divorced from Darcy. It wouldn’t feel right for him if they just lived together simply because she was no longer with Darcy. William is a stickler for doing things the right way. He will not truly see her as his to keep until she was legally his wife. He respects her a lot and didn’t want anyone to see her as a prostitute and an unfaithful wife to Darcy. He certainly didn’t want to compromise himself. In the end, he didn’t quite make it though. He couldn’t help stealing a few kisses and cuddles before Darcy got killed, even though he may not have slept with her during that period. I'll be very disappointed if this William I see is a 40 yr old virgin. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 23, 2014 6:57:42 GMT
I will have to disagree with you on this one. He did admit to Darcy that they had been lovers but that was before she met Darcy, and they weren’t even married yet. Fair enough, he didn’t touch her again once she left for Buffalo and all the time she was married and living with Darcy. What I read from his speech of not compromising her was him telling her he was not going to live with her in sin (as a married woman) until she was divorced from Darcy. It wouldn’t feel right for him if they just lived together simply because she was no longer with Darcy. William is a stickler for doing things the right way. He will not truly see her as his to keep until she was legally his wife. He respects her a lot and didn’t want anyone to see her as a prostitute and an unfaithful wife to Darcy. He certainly didn’t want to compromise himself. In the end, he didn’t quite make it though. He couldn’t help stealing a few kisses and cuddles before Darcy got killed, even though he may not have slept with her during that period. I'll be very disappointed if this William I see is a 40 yr old virgin. William actually admitted to having a 'romantic relationship' with Julia. That doesn't have to entail sex. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 23, 2014 7:11:09 GMT
I'll be very disappointed if this William I see is a 40 yr old virgin. I don't understand why people would be upset if William is a virgin. I know for some it's a matter of 'wasting the best years of his life' but I don't see it that way. I'm perfectly fine if he waits until they're married and hasn't been with Anna either. I love the idea of the perfect gentleman saving himself for his true love on their wedding night. How romantic is that! Not that I think William is romantic though he does try at times. |
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