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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 16, 2015 11:18:33 GMT
So, for a while, I've been wondering why I love the earlier seasons of MM best, and I think one of the biggest factors were little touches that did nothing necessarily to further the plot or mystery, but still added to it, and they also helped set the tone of the show as well as give some insight/interesting tidbits about the characters. I know we've discussed the move to CBC at season 6 as a reason the show lost some sparkle as well as PM coming in at season 5, but I don't think that there's a single factor that turned the show into cult fave into mainstream hit. However, I do believe that with shorter run times per episode for seasons 6-7 as opposed to seasons 1-5, I do think that we lost some space for details that did hurt the show. So, because I didn't want to go to bed at 6:30 this evening, I did some research and math. I went to Acorn TV and did the average run times for seasons 1-7 as listed on the website. This includes the opening and closing credits-sorry-I wasn't interested enough to determine run times minus credits.  Season 1: 48:08 Season 2: 47:19 Season 3: 47:40 Season 4: 47:42 Season 5: 47:38 Season 6: 44:05 Season 7: 44:06 I should note that the episodes for most season 2 were only a few seconds shorter than season 1, but 2x13-"Anything You Can Do" is an astonishing 2 minutes shorter than every other episode for the season at 45:37-the other 12 eps are coming in at around the 47:35 mark-give or take a few seconds. Note that the show lost approximately 3 and a half minutes per episode when it made the jump to CBC. That's enormous! Yes, we're now getting more episodes to make up for that lost time, but those 3:30 minutes were used to give depth to an episode/mystery/etc. and now they're gone. I think we miss those three and a half minutes more than we think we do... If anyone is that excited to see my math, I'll share it with you, but I added up all episode run times and divided it by 13 episodes (or 18 eps for season 7). I have not done season 8 as that information was not as easily accessible to me at this time. I'll do season 8 when it's available on Acorn-which should be as soon as it has finished in Canada. Anyway, I think this is interesting. Now, we have data to back up our assertions that something has changed. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 16, 2015 16:09:46 GMT
Anyway, I think this is interesting. Now, we have data to back up our assertions that something has changed. I agree the shorter run time takes away from what the episodes can do. And those parts are crucial! I'm always shocked at what the American syndicated parts cut out! Last night the syndicated version cut out William and Jasper's competition over the cause of murder of the Swallowtail butterfly which established both Jasper's credentials and William's reasons to be jealous of him! But I don't think the shorter episodes are entirely to blame. Season 8 feels a lot flabbier to me because of the way the episodes are constructed. Earlier episodes seems to "sparkle" more because the scripts WERE more clever and tightly written. I'd actually go away from a scene thinking, "wow that WRITING was amazing! Wasn't that a spot on!" It's hard to boil down and compare line for line what makes one episode better than another in terms of that background structure or consistent "smartness" of the writing. The writing is still good now, too, which makes it hard to criticize. But I do think the episodes could be tightened up and enriched with something (wit? - not necessarily slapstick.) even with the shorter running time. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 17, 2015 13:01:00 GMT
Anyway, I think this is interesting. Now, we have data to back up our assertions that something has changed. I agree the shorter run time takes away from what the episodes can do. And those parts are crucial! I'm always shocked at what the American syndicated parts cut out! Last night the syndicated version cut out William and Jasper's competition over the cause of murder of the Swallowtail butterfly which established both Jasper's credentials and William's reasons to be jealous of him! But I don't think the shorter episodes are entirely to blame. Season 8 feels a lot flabbier to me because of the way the episodes are constructed. Earlier episodes seems to "sparkle" more because the scripts WERE more clever and tightly written. I'd actually go away from a scene thinking, "wow that WRITING was amazing! Wasn't that a spot on!" It's hard to boil down and compare line for line what makes one episode better than another in terms of that background structure or consistent "smartness" of the writing. The writing is still good now, too, which makes it hard to criticize. But I do think the episodes could be tightened up and enriched with something (wit? - not necessarily slapstick.) even with the shorter running time. I didn't say that the shorter episodes were solely to blame, I think there are a myriad of factors, but I've been rewatching season one lately, and one thing it does very well is set the mood and tone-it really does a fantastic job of transporting you back to 1895. One of the keys ways it did this was by playing popular music of the day-and integrating it into the story. For example, there's a scene in Child's Play where William goes to see the Butler/Blackmailer while he's at a tavern. It wasn't necessary, but it did add complexity to the case by giving us some insight into the butler, as well as some cultural/historical flavor. I think this is the sort of detail we're missing this season in particular. Also, scenes where William went to talk to Julia in the morgue featured popular music of the day as well as William discussing pertinent details of the case with her. This does not happen anymore-William goes into the morgue, gets the facts, and leaves. Granted, he's not going to flirt with Emily as he did with Julia, but this hints to me that Emily's character may be expendable-she's really not doing that much in terms of the mysteries. Right now, she's not doing anything that a phone call from an anonymous coroner couldn't do. Emily's involvement in the show this season has been her personal life-not professionally. Excepting Toronto's Girl Problem, but otherwise... These scenes in the grand scheme of things do nothing to further the plot/mystery, but they did get you into the mindset and helped get you in the mood. I understand where scenes like that had to be trimmed out when you're editing for time, but I think it impacted the show more than we would give it credit for. Scenes like that weren't absolutely necessary, but they were a very nice touch and added so much depth. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 17, 2015 20:07:22 GMT
I didn't say that the shorter episodes were solely to blame, I think there are a myriad of factors, but I've been rewatching season one lately, and one thing it does very well is set the mood and tone-it really does a fantastic job of transporting you back to 1895. One of the keys ways it did this was by playing popular music of the day-and integrating it into the story. For example, there's a scene in Child's Play where William goes to see the Butler/Blackmailer while he's at a tavern. It wasn't necessary, but it did add complexity to the case by giving us some insight into the butler, as well as some cultural/historical flavor. I think this is the sort of detail we're missing this season in particular. Also, scenes where William went to talk to Julia in the morgue featured popular music of the day as well as William discussing pertinent details of the case with her. These scenes in the grand scheme of things do nothing to further the plot/mystery, but they did get you into the mindset and helped get you in the mood. I understand where scenes like that had to be trimmed out when you're editing for time, but I think it impacted the show more than we would give it credit for. Scenes like that weren't absolutely necessary, but they were a very nice touch and added so much depth. Yes, some of the extra sets may have been sacrificed to the B plots. During Season 1 MM experimented with a variety of "styles", and I think it settled down into a good formula during Season 2. I think the sets/style had a little more "grittiness" during the early seasons. Right now they are trying to bring MM into the transformations of the 20ths century, which involves a lot more polish. I realize that the reason this polish is coming as Disneyfication is a lot of the Disney movies I saw over and over again as a child were set during this era - expecially Mary Poppins. I think MM has to be careful about getting a bit too much reverb from Disney style because it makes MM seem to light-hearted and vapid, which makes people nostalgic for that era of grit! |
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Post by lovemondays on Mar 27, 2015 19:04:15 GMT
So, for a while, I've been wondering why I love the earlier seasons of MM best, and I think one of the biggest factors were little touches that did nothing necessarily to further the plot or mystery, but still added to it, and they also helped set the tone of the show as well as give some insight/interesting tidbits about the characters. I know we've discussed the move to CBC at season 6 as a reason the show lost some sparkle as well as PM coming in at season 5, but I don't think that there's a single factor that turned the show into cult fave into mainstream hit. However, I do believe that with shorter run times per episode for seasons 6-7 as opposed to seasons 1-5, I do think that we lost some space for details that did hurt the show. So, because I didn't want to go to bed at 6:30 this evening, I did some research and math. I went to Acorn TV and did the average run times for seasons 1-7 as listed on the website. This includes the opening and closing credits-sorry-I wasn't interested enough to determine run times minus credits. Season 1: 48:08 Season 2: 47:19 Season 3: 47:40 Season 4: 47:42 Season 5: 47:38 Season 6: 44:05 Season 7: 44:06 I should note that the episodes for most season 2 were only a few seconds shorter than season 1, but 2x13-"Anything You Can Do" is an astonishing 2 minutes shorter than every other episode for the season at 45:37-the other 12 eps are coming in at around the 47:35 mark-give or take a few seconds. Note that the show lost approximately 3 and a half minutes per episode when it made the jump to CBC. That's enormous! Yes, we're now getting more episodes to make up for that lost time, but those 3:30 minutes were used to give depth to an episode/mystery/etc. and now they're gone. I think we miss those three and a half minutes more than we think we do... If anyone is that excited to see my math, I'll share it with you, but I added up all episode run times and divided it by 13 episodes (or 18 eps for season 7). I have not done season 8 as that information was not as easily accessible to me at this time. I'll do season 8 when it's available on Acorn-which should be as soon as it has finished in Canada. Anyway, I think this is interesting. Now, we have data to back up our assertions that something has changed. Very interesting. Four minutes is an entire scene or more depth into the existing ones! How are US viewers supposed to get ANY idea of the true greatness of this show if it is being cut down even further in syndication? The early scripts in particular are so tight that there is nothing that can be spared. Thanks for the math Fallenbelle. I'll try to hunt up the S8 run times from CBC. |
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Post by lovemondays on Mar 27, 2015 19:23:42 GMT
S8 runs an average of 44:14 up to the end of 817. The episodes are really consistent with most either 44:13, 44:14 or 44:15. Only one is 44:16. That is still close to 4 minutes less than S1 with way more characters and sub plots to keep up with. It has to be a factor in what we are perceiving as a decline. 
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Post by snacky on Mar 27, 2015 19:33:05 GMT
I wish I had a way of timing the US syndicated version. They cut out whole scenes and also speed the video up bit. I would guess they cut 10 minutes.
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Post by lovemondays on Mar 27, 2015 19:38:48 GMT
I wish I had a way of timing the US syndicated version. They cut out whole scenes and also speed the video up bit. I would guess they cut 10 minutes. That is just criminal. They are murdering the show! Maybe we need to get William in there to investigate.  |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 27, 2015 20:23:45 GMT
I wish I had a way of timing the US syndicated version. They cut out whole scenes and also speed the video up bit. I would guess they cut 10 minutes. Speed up the video?? Why are they bothering to air it if they're going to butcher it beyond recognition? |
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Post by lizmc on Mar 27, 2015 20:27:51 GMT
Unfortunately, this is par for the course. I still remember a wonderful version of Oliver Twist which was a co-production from ITV, CBC and PBS.....I watched both the ITV and CBC broadcasts and it was great.....PBS wanted to show in in one less installment, so they cut a full 45 minutes from a 4 episode series.....I gave up trying to watch it as it was so disjointed, if you didn't already know the story, you wouldn't have a clue what was going on.....they completely ruined it.....
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Post by snacky on Mar 28, 2015 1:07:54 GMT
Speed up the video?? Why are they bothering to air it if they're going to butcher it beyond recognition? It's also on at 1am Sunday night. It's just filling up air time where an infomercial would normally be. MM follows some TV megachurch precher. The situation is not one that I approve of.  |
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Post by snacky on Mar 28, 2015 1:25:17 GMT
That is just criminal. They are murdering the show! Maybe we need to get William in there to investigate. Well YB was here 2 weeks ago. Maybe the Magic Homburg (exec producer hat) followed. |
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Post by El Bastarde on Mar 31, 2015 1:24:26 GMT
I'd have to disagree about the newer seasons being so much worse...I've thought they're truly improved as each season goes on. Watching those early-season reruns can be jarring...the acting can be stiff, they're unsure about what types of characters they have (Brackenreid being borderline evil at times), the camera shots can be awkward (weird close-ups, spinning cameras) and the effects were certainly worse.
Nowadays, the characters are so much more comfortable in their own skins, they're nicely established, their relationships feel very real after all this time and I think the mysteries are still pretty clever. And, as has been shown by this Season 8 Finale, they can still give us a good "chill scene" here and there. Everyone has their favorite seasons but to pretend that they're all so much worse is a bit unfair.
And allow me to say I'm one who would never have discovered this show if it wasn't on CBC (that's all I get from Canada here in Michigan) so please realize it's done some good. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 19:11:18 GMT
I'd have to disagree about the newer seasons being so much worse...I've thought they're truly improved as each season goes on. Watching those early-season reruns can be jarring...the acting can be stiff, they're unsure about what types of characters they have (Brackenreid being borderline evil at times), the camera shots can be awkward (weird close-ups, spinning cameras) and the effects were certainly worse.
Nowadays, the characters are so much more comfortable in their own skins, they're nicely established, their relationships feel very real after all this time and I think the mysteries are still pretty clever. And, as has been shown by this Season 8 Finale, they can still give us a good "chill scene" here and there. Everyone has their favorite seasons but to pretend that they're all so much worse is a bit unfair.
And allow me to say I'm one who would never have discovered this show if it wasn't on CBC (that's all I get from Canada here in Michigan) so please realize it's done some good. Well that is a refreshing point of view! Thanks for posting! We just hope the CBC keeps remembering what a great thing they have! |
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