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Post by Lucy on Jun 10, 2012 18:03:42 GMT
I watched 'The Green Muse' and 'Shades of Grey' today and I'm slightly confused about the whole baby issue.
In TGM when they are drinking the absinthe they kiss and Julia asks William if he has any prophylaxis, meaning contraception.
Then in SoG she tells him that she can't have children?
I know that now contraception might be used even though you might not be able to have children.
It just confuses me, my Mom pointed it out after the episodes had finished
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Post by hannikan on Jun 11, 2012 4:17:13 GMT
Yeah, it's confused a lot of people. Here's what I think. In TGM, Julia was concerned about pregnancy since she had already had an unwanted pregnancy previously and William looked pretty determined to "go all the way" after his liquid courage. I also think since Julia was on the cutting edge of medicine she knew how sexually transmitted diseases are contracted. Also it was a little ambiguous whether William had slept with Ettie and whether she was a prostitute. I think Julia was a little concerned about that. In those days, the only reason a man would use a condom is if he was with a prostitute. I think in TGM, she didn't yet know that she couldn't have children. I think she actually found that out when she went to speak to Dr. Tasch in SOG when William saw her. I think she went to see Dr. Tasch because she and William were becoming an item and, as a doctor, she would know that it was possible that after having an abortion, she may not be able to have children. She would have assumed that William would want children and that he would assume she could have them, should they get married in the future. And given how badly her abortion was performed, she would know it was very possible they left damage that could impede pregnancy. I think that even though she was told she wouldn't be able to have children, it still wouldn't be an absolute. It may still be possible but it's good that she and William know it's very possible that she can't.
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Post by barbarama on Jun 11, 2012 22:49:30 GMT
To Hannikan, That is a very interesting way of looking at it, I always thought that she knew she couldn't have children but then it is true that this part of the episode of TGM is then confusing. Thanks for sharing your idea, another topic to have thoughts over  |
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Post by hannikan on Jun 12, 2012 0:17:35 GMT
Yeah, the writers were pretty crafty at leading us to think one thing about Julia and then revealing something that changed things. We were led to believe, through things she said, that Julia didn't want children after her abortion/because she valued her career so much. But we learned in S3 that she believed she couldn't have children. She may have been hiding behind the facade of not wanting them because she has been told that she couldn't. But that diagnosis, while certainly possible, could in fact be wrong in her case. She may also have been aware that if she and William married, and he wanted to remain Catholic, they would have to agree to raise their children Catholic. I imagine that will come up in the future.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Dec 11, 2012 17:38:18 GMT
Smart Hannikan, very smart! You must have spent a fair amount of time thinking about this and I appreciate it cuz now things make sense for once. You're like a master sleuth yourself to put this together. Well done, well done indeed.  |
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Post by rondetto on Dec 11, 2012 18:45:46 GMT
Interesting topic, Yes she did have an illegal abortion some years back which I guess makes her believe that her child bearing days are over. maybe!!
But there are a few episodes when we see William playing with his son, and my guess it's his and Julia's. Maybe the very end of the excellent series we'll see a pregnant and smiling Julia and an ecstatic William.
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Post by hannikan on Dec 11, 2012 23:04:00 GMT
Aw thanks, PP! I obviously have thought a lot about it. I think the writers did too, though. The question now is that, since there are different people in charge of the writing, will they have been as observant of how things were set up as I was?
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 15, 2014 17:28:35 GMT
This topic has been on my mind for a while. With a wedding finally coming the question is going to come up again. It has always troubled me that Julia put on the brakes for lack of prophylactics in "The Green Muse", then finally reveals that she is sterile in "The Tesla Effect". It made sense when she told William about her abortion in "Shades of Grey" but when did she make the leap from needing condoms to knowing pregnancy was out of the question? I agree with hannikan's supposition that Julia discussed it with Dr. Tash when she went to see him. It was clear that she was distressed about it through "Rich Boy, Poor Boy" and "Love and Human Remains", as she was falling deeper in love with William.
So how do you think the odds really stack up for the possibility that Julia will have William's baby? IMO, the pertinent issues are:
-her near death after the abortion was the result of a perforated uterus and/or severe infection either
of which could leave scar tissue or blocked tubes (not that medicine in 1902 could know that)
-Julia's age. As endlessly debated elsewhere we can agree that Julia is at least in her mid thirties,
an age when many women were already grandmothers.
-she didn't get pregnant during her marriage to Darcy
The writers may choose to ignore the issue completely and proceed directly to finding a little boy to adopt. I don't think any of this will appear in season 8. It will be enough to get them finally married; however, the romantic in me would love to see them have a child of their own.
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Post by snacky on Jun 15, 2014 17:48:21 GMT
It has always troubled me that Julia put on the brakes for lack of prophylactics in "The Green Muse", then finally reveals that she is sterile in "The Tesla Effect". It made sense when she told William about her abortion in "Shades of Grey" but when did she make the leap from needing condoms to knowing pregnancy was out of the question? I agree with hannikan's supposition that Julia discussed it with Dr. Tash when she went to see him. So how do you think the odds really stack up for the possibility that Julia will have William's baby? IMO, the pertinent issues are: -her near death after the abortion was the result of a perforated uterus and/or severe infection either of which could leave scar tissue or blocked tubes (not that medicine in 1902 could know that) -Julia's age. As endlessly debated elsewhere we can agree that Julia is at least in her mid thirties, an age when many women were already grandmothers. -she didn't get pregnant during her marriage to Darcy My thought about The Green Muse is Julia knew William was drunk, and she was using a traditional diplomatic maneuver simply because she wasn't ready to take that step at the minute. One of the issues of the #YesAllWomen discussion brought to the surface is how hard it is for women to say no just because they feel like saying no at the minute, even if they are in love with the man they are with: it's really hard to fend off the male torrent of words when there's no "reason" not to. I'm not sure if this is true, but I was recently told girls are now expected to have sex after the prom. Thank god that wasn't true when I was in high school: I liked my date, but not that much. Interesting thought about the visit to Dr. Tash. That never occurred to me, and it puts a new light on why she told William about her abortion then. Perhaps she was really telling him about her sterility then. But...I have faith in the possibility Julia can get pregnant. It's an age of medical advances! And William has seen the future, and there's been a son in it every time. (Also a cheesy mustache, grrr.). You might argue that the time machine was fake, but one could also argue that seizures accessed his unconscious, jarred quantum entanglements and such, and did give him an actual premonition. Haven't we all had spooky premonitions that came true, that were too specific to be coincidence? I believe William *knew* subconsciously that he would marry Julia and have at least one son with her. And that son would be born, not adopted. Also, if the vision in Twentieth Century Murdoch is accurate, that son has to be conceived in 1903. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 15, 2014 18:09:57 GMT
Ooooooh, your're right about the timing of the son! My heart goes pitter pat at the thought. Maybe a side arc could be Julia investigating her options before bringing them to William. She loves him too much to give him false hope about such a dearly held desire.
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Post by snacky on Jun 15, 2014 18:24:06 GMT
Ooooooh, your're right about the timing of the son! My heart goes pitter pat at the thought. Maybe a side arc could be Julia investigating her options before bringing them to William. She loves him too much to give him false hope about such a dearly held desire. It looks like she already started if that's why she visited Dr. Tash! Now I want to see Dr. Tash return, because this may give William cause to change his views on him as well. (Though this might eventually cause a big row as Julia would be getting involved with the abortion issue again). It seems to me medical interest and experimentation was very active in this field, and artificial insemination might even be possible: what are Catholicism's views on that? I imagine William would be very creeped out, but at least it would be his child. *** lol, did you watch Little House on the Prairie when you were young? I just flashed on Mrs. Olsen hunting for a child just like Nellie to adopt. XD |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 15, 2014 23:55:37 GMT
Although I like Dr. Tash as a character, I worry that if Julia goes to him for advice she would be setting things up for a rip roaring row with William. He already suppressed the knowledge that Tash is an abortionist in order to protect Julia. She knows that. If he can do some procedure on her then William would have to know. Tough decision.
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Post by snacky on Jun 16, 2014 2:01:19 GMT
Although I like Dr. Tash as a character, I worry that if Julia goes to him for advice she would be setting things up for a rip roaring row with William. He already suppressed the knowledge that Tash is an abortionist in order to protect Julia. She knows that. If he can do some procedure on her then William would have to know. Tough decision. I think William's feelings about Dr. Tash are more complicated. He originally viewed him as a rival for Julia's affections, someone who had dated her in the past. For a minute he thought he was the one who got her pregnant. But beyond the fact he's an abortionist, he's the "high class" abortionist that the law will wink at, while the "low class" abortionists arrested and even get the noose. This is a subtle class resentment. Dr. Tash is the type of guy who gets women like Julia, and the type of guy who is above the law. William would have to get to know Dr. Tash personally, and stop seeing him as a "type" of guy to get past this resentment. If William did discover Julia was meeting with Dr. Tash again, I'm sure there would be a huge row, but that would make for some great drama. It would be nice if that drama would resolve with William learning of Dr. Tash's efforts to help Julia conceive. That is, if Julia lets William back in bed after he harasses Dr. Tash yet again. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 16, 2014 2:31:51 GMT
Hahaha! It's going to be William choosing the sofa because he's so mad at her.
The William-Julia-Tash triangle is very complicated. Even if Julia discussed it with Wm beforehand there would still be some squirmy scenes if the 3 of them ever have a very specific discussion about Julia's fertility and what they, as a couple, would need to do.
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Post by snacky on Jun 16, 2014 3:10:01 GMT
Hahaha! It's going to be William choosing the sofa because he's so mad at her. The William-Julia-Tash triangle is very complicated. Even if Julia discussed it with Wm beforehand there would still be some squirmy scenes if the 3 of them ever have a very specific discussion about Julia's fertility and what they, as a couple, would need to do. Pffft. While he's cooling off on the sofa, I think he'll get some ideas about what else he can do with that sofa. I would like to see William resolve things with Dr. Tash, though. Dr. Tash is trying to do the right thing: just because he's privileged doesn't make him bad. |
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