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Post by snacky on Jun 29, 2014 19:18:40 GMT
From the shipper point of view, William's epic character/personality/mental flaw is his total inaction when his relationship with Julia is falling apart.
1) Julia tells William she's had an abortion. After years of fantasizing about her, William lets her put words in his mouth and walk away.
2) Julia tells William she can't have children. William buys the ring, composes his proposal, fantasizes about how Julia will react, misses her train, and *refrains from following her*. Then he apparently spends months sparing at the ceiling and brooding about it while Julia gets courted by Darcy Garland. Some vague hints are thrown our way that this has something to do with dedication to the job and to the ideal of Upholding the Law vs. pursuing personal happiness. I'm not buying it: Buffalo is not that far away.
3) William drinks some liquid courage, gets down on his knees and begs Julia to make him the happiest man in the world by marrying him. He has been courting Julia for months. They've discussed marriage. They've repeatedly declared their love. They've been making out like spring bunnies. Yet Julia says she can't, and runs away clearly frightened. She doesn't say "no", she says she can't. Clearly more effort is required on the part of "The Great Detective" than just drunkenly knocking on her door and begging her to let him in.
In each of these cases when their relationship was disrupted in some way, William simply shut down. The first time he got all petty and began rather overtly exploring his options with other women. Later he began exploring his options with tinkering with his gadgets. What is wrong with him?
Addendum: After Julia makes the remark about eye contact in Dead End Street, and William meets her eyes as if he's testing that proposition, I have to wonder if he thinks that mode of communication has been failing. He clearly thought they had good eye contact communication in the Beaton Manor ep, though.
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Post by carco on Jun 29, 2014 22:23:10 GMT
From the shipper point of view, William's epic character/personality/mental flaw is his total inaction when his relationship with Julia is falling apart. 1) Julia tells William she's had an abortion. After years of fantasizing about her, William lets her put words in his mouth and walk away. 2) Julia tells William she can't have children. William buys the ring, composes his proposal, fantasizes about how Julia will react, misses her train, and *refrains from following her*. Then he apparently spends months sparing at the ceiling and brooding about it while Julia gets courted by Darcy Garland. Some vague hints are thrown our way that this has something to do with dedication to the job and to the ideal of Upholding the Law vs. pursuing personal happiness. I'm not buying it: Buffalo is not that far away. 3) William drinks some liquid courage, gets down on his knees and begs Julia to make him the happiest man in the world by marrying him. He has been courting Julia for months. They've discussed marriage. They've repeatedly declared their love. They've been making out like spring bunnies. Yet Julia says she can't, and runs away clearly frightened. She doesn't say "no", she says she can't. Clearly more effort is required on the part of "The Great Detective" than just drunkenly knocking on her door and begging her to let him in. In each of these cases when their relationship was disrupted in some way, William simply shut down. The first time he got all petty and began rather overtly exploring his options with other women. Later he began exploring his options with tinkering with his gadgets. What is wrong with him?
Addendum: After Julia makes the remark about eye contact in Dead End Street, and William meets her eyes as if he's testing that proposition, I have to wonder if he thinks that mode of communication has been failing. He clearly thought they had good eye contact communication in the Beaton Manor ep, though.
Gif Credit: 22ontariostreet.tumblr.com/post/59022206688/bloodyhellmurdoch-22ontariostreet-the-momentGood points all. In his work life, William is confident, self assured and a master at what he does. He over thinks things, especially matters pertaining to what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion. He knows what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion and the laws of the land....and was never encouraged to question them. Social matters are a minefield for him. He feels awkward at parties, dancing, socializing in general but in those matters he IS willing to push himself (taking dance lessons, going to the Policeman's Ball New Years Eve 1900, etc.). But with Julia, I don't know. He seems to adore her to the point he feels unworthy of her leading to a defeatist attitude. That causes him to give up without even trying. Likely at the orphanage he spent all of his his time with other boys and failed to learn anything about girls/women (except to realize somewhere along the line that he liked them). Working in a lumberjack camp probably didn't provide opportunities for him to meet fine ladies. Neither did the Police Dept. But then he met Julia--wealthy, professional, well educated, high-spirited, assertive Julia and he really, really liked her but can't understand why she would like him and figured he does not deserve her. So whenever their relationship faltered he folded. After they are married he will probably still pinch himself every morning he awakes and finds her still there! She seems to be fully aware of this side of him and prods him along (pulling him into the water with her that night at the beach and giving him every opportunity to propose to her again, right up to when he was going on about not wanting just a couple of months of happiness....she placed herself squarely in front of him and said ask me again. She's the seems to know what's going on with him and accepts it. As for the eye contact, that is a very tough situation for someone who is socially insecure and he did have problems with that, but by the end of S7 he seems to be able to handle intense eye contact with Julia. |
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Post by snacky on Jun 29, 2014 23:30:29 GMT
In his work life, William is confident, self assured and a master at what he does. He over thinks things, especially matters pertaining to what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion. He knows what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion and the laws of the land....and was never encouraged to question them. Social matters are a minefield for him. He feels awkward at parties, dancing, socializing in general but in those matters he IS willing to push himself (taking dance lessons, going to the Policeman's Ball New Years Eve 1900, etc.). But with Julia, I don't know. He seems to adore her to the point he feels unworthy of her leading to a defeatist attitude. That causes him to give up without even trying. Likely at the orphanage he spent all of his his time with other boys and failed to learn anything about girls/women (except to realize somewhere along the line that he liked them). Working in a lumberjack camp probably didn't provide opportunities for him to meet fine ladies. Neither did the Police Dept. But then he met Julia--wealthy, professional, well educated, high-spirited, assertive Julia and he really, really liked her but can't understand why she would like him and figured he does not deserve her. So whenever their relationship faltered he folded. After they are married he will probably still pinch himself every morning he awakes and finds her still there! She seems to be fully aware of this side of him and prods him along (pulling him into the water with her that night at the beach and giving him every opportunity to propose to her again, right up to when he was going on about not wanting just a couple of months of happiness....she placed herself squarely in front of him and said ask me again. She's the seems to know what's going on with him and accepts it. As for the eye contact, that is a very tough situation for someone who is socially insecure and he did have problems with that, but by the end of S7 he seems to be able to handle intense eye contact with Julia. Hmm that reminds me of something 22OntarioStreet said ( click here) when she posted her gif set of the walk at the end of Murdoch in Ladies Wear. She pointed out that William revealed a surprising amount of insecurity over whether Julia would wait around for them to be able to marry. She seems to be the equivalent of a butterfly to him: first they fly left, then they fly right... Julia also seems to seems to sense that William doesn't quite know where she stands, even though she tried to make sure the last thing she did is clarify her feelings. Okay, so lets say he isn't going after her because he doesn't think he can catch her (he doesn't deserve her, it's more logical for her to be with someone else, she's too autonomous and he can't be sure of her motives...). It's still odd he doesn't use his extraordinary power as a detective to try to get a better handle of what's going on. Regarding eye contact: this cracks me up because I find that William uses this a lot, but often in an awkward, over-shooting way. It's like he read about the importance of eye contact in a book, and has been trying to practice it on Julia. That's one of the social skills he's learning along the way, lol. XD |
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Post by carco on Jun 29, 2014 23:48:31 GMT
In his work life, William is confident, self assured and a master at what he does. He over thinks things, especially matters pertaining to what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion. He knows what is right or wrong from the standpoint of his religion and the laws of the land....and was never encouraged to question them. Social matters are a minefield for him. He feels awkward at parties, dancing, socializing in general but in those matters he IS willing to push himself (taking dance lessons, going to the Policeman's Ball New Years Eve 1900, etc.). But with Julia, I don't know. He seems to adore her to the point he feels unworthy of her leading to a defeatist attitude. That causes him to give up without even trying. Likely at the orphanage he spent all of his his time with other boys and failed to learn anything about girls/women (except to realize somewhere along the line that he liked them). Working in a lumberjack camp probably didn't provide opportunities for him to meet fine ladies. Neither did the Police Dept. But then he met Julia--wealthy, professional, well educated, high-spirited, assertive Julia and he really, really liked her but can't understand why she would like him and figured he does not deserve her. So whenever their relationship faltered he folded. After they are married he will probably still pinch himself every morning he awakes and finds her still there! She seems to be fully aware of this side of him and prods him along (pulling him into the water with her that night at the beach and giving him every opportunity to propose to her again, right up to when he was going on about not wanting just a couple of months of happiness....she placed herself squarely in front of him and said ask me again. She's the seems to know what's going on with him and accepts it. As for the eye contact, that is a very tough situation for someone who is socially insecure and he did have problems with that, but by the end of S7 he seems to be able to handle intense eye contact with Julia. Hmm that reminds me of something 22OntarioStreet said ( click here) when she posted her gif set of the walk at the end of Murdoch in Ladies Wear. She pointed out that William revealed a surprising amount of insecurity over whether Julia would wait around for them to be able to marry. She seems to be the equivalent of a butterfly to him: first they fly left, then they fly right... Okay, so lets say he isn't going after her because he doesn't think he can catch her (he doesn't deserve her, it's more logical for her to be with someone else, she's too autonomous and he can't be sure of her motives...). It's still odd he doesn't use his extraordinary power as a detective to try to get a better handle of what's going on. Regarding eye contact: this cracks me up because I find that William uses this a lot, but often in an awkward, over-shooting way. It's like he read about the importance of eye contact in a book, and has been trying to practice it on Julia. That's one of the social skills he's learning along the way, lol. XD Yes, 22 Ontario St nailed it, to my mind  Interesting comparing Julia's actions with a butterfly....you could be on to something. In his mind the butterfly's actions are so random, it freaks him out. If Julia's actions seem unfathomable to him it could be that sense of 'random" that he has trouble dealing with. He's kind of a straight line thinker. His power as a detective comes from what goes on in his head, his dealing with Julia are from the heart and his heart seems to have a mind of it's own. Hah! I'm picturing him studying up on "eye contact". Well whatever, hopefully he can throw the book out soon.  |
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Post by snacky on Jun 30, 2014 0:08:02 GMT
Interesting comparing Julia's actions with a butterfly....you could be on to something. In his mind the butterfly's actions are so random, it freaks him out. If Julia's actions seem unfathomable to him it could be that sense of 'random" that he has trouble dealing with. He's kind of a straight line thinker. His power as a detective comes from what goes on in his head, his dealing with Julia are from the heart and his heart seems to have a mind of it's own. Hah! I'm picturing him studying up on "eye contact". Well whatever, hopefully he can throw the book out soon. At the same time Julia is almost an icon of autonomy as a feature, not a bug, of the modern woman. That's part of what William admires and loves about her. He doesn't want to change that even if it does freak him out. 22OntarioStreet made another interesting observation ( click here for post). William mainly expresses emotions to Julia, almost like she's become some sort of emotional lightning rod for him. But how does that inhibit him from following her when she starts to fly away? I totally think he studied up on the eye contact. If nothing else, Dead End street proved to me goes way overboard when he finds out he should be doing something more to communicate to Julia. |
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Post by snacky on Jun 30, 2014 6:30:03 GMT
A Tumblr thread noted while compiling fantasy gifs ( post here) that in both William's and Julia's fantasies, William takes the initiative. But in reality, William waits to be invited in some way. I find this really interesting in light of another episode (I forget which - was it the risque books in Stroll on the Wild Side) where someone was talking about the cues women send to let men know what they want: George wanted to hear more, but William irritably cut him off. However, It's not like William has any insight into these cues himself. I'm surprised he wasn't more interested in them. Perhaps he regarded learning them as the slippery slope to his mind's "dark places", and extra time in the confession box. |
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Post by carco on Jun 30, 2014 20:49:43 GMT
Interesting comparing Julia's actions with a butterfly....you could be on to something. In his mind the butterfly's actions are so random, it freaks him out. If Julia's actions seem unfathomable to him it could be that sense of 'random" that he has trouble dealing with. He's kind of a straight line thinker. His power as a detective comes from what goes on in his head, his dealing with Julia are from the heart and his heart seems to have a mind of it's own. Hah! I'm picturing him studying up on "eye contact". Well whatever, hopefully he can throw the book out soon. At the same time Julia is almost an icon of autonomy as a feature, not a bug, of the modern woman. That's part of what William admires and loves about her. He doesn't want to change that even if it does freak him out. 22OntarioStreet made another interesting observation ( click here for post). William mainly expresses emotions to Julia, almost like she's become some sort of emotional lightning rod for him. But how does that inhibit him from following her when she starts to fly away? I totally think he studied up on the eye contact. If nothing else, Dead End street proved to me goes way overboard when he finds out he should be doing something more to communicate to Julia. I agree with 22 Ontario (as I usually do!) My take: we know William keeps his emotions under very close guard. He rarely lets even the Inspector know what he's truly feeling,even when Mr B lets him know that he knows exactly what he must be feeling. George often knows what he's feeling, too but William (until the 2nd failed proposal) would never talk to George about his feelings. But with Julia he has shown her his deepest emotions, fears and weaknesses. He feels he's left himself incredibly vulnerable when it comes to her which he is fine with....unless she 'starts to fly'. Then he takes that as complete and total rejection of 'him'. It pretty much paralyzes him and leaves him capable only of going through the motions at work. In terms of "flight or fight?" when Julia walks away, he can't even choose flight! As for learning how to communicate with Julia better, I think he is well aware that he had lots to learn and I guess it would be normal for him to have to spend some time tweaking his skills, so to speak. But I think a lot of that angst settled down by the last few episodes of S7. |
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Post by snacky on Jun 30, 2014 23:08:39 GMT
we know William keeps his emotions under very close guard. He rarely lets even the Inspector know what he's truly feeling,even when Mr B lets him know that he knows exactly what he must be feeling. George often knows what he's feeling, too but William (until the 2nd failed proposal) would never talk to George about his feelings. But with Julia he has shown her his deepest emotions, fears and weaknesses. He feels he's left himself incredibly vulnerable when it comes to her which he is fine with....unless she 'starts to fly'. Then he takes that as complete and total rejection of 'him'. It pretty much paralyzes him and leaves him capable only of going through the motions at work. In terms of "flight or fight?" when Julia walks away, he can't even choose flight! As for learning how to communicate with Julia better, I think he is well aware that he had lots to learn and I guess it would be normal for him to have to spend some time tweaking his skills, so to speak. I had a thought on William's conflict here today. I think William's not chasing after Julia because he wants her to come to him. He's established that she's an autonomous being (Victor/Victorian), and of course there are a lot of other things he's just uncertain about (class issues, what he deserves, her feelings). He wants Julia to come to him of her own free will. On the other hand, this is the Victorian/Edwardian era, where men are expected to take the initiative, to protect and dominate women. So it must take some incredible mental acrobatics for William to step back from this role while retaining his sense of masculinity. By the way, I don't think Julia is the only woman he's treated this way. In the one park scene with Liza, William was obviously enjoying himself as Liza came to him. In The Murdoch Identity, with all his middle class facade stripped away, William still waited for Anna to make the first move. But I think there's some Freudian conflict at work here given his chronic pervy contemplation: And the fact that he's aggressive in all his fantasies. And moreover, he's aggressive in all JULIA'S fantasies. So once Julia proves to him whatever he needs to have proven, she obviously hopes he will get over it and start owning some of his own desires. (and to stop calling them "dark places"). By the way, what was that first season episode where Brackenreid said William went out of his way to avoid pleasure? I don't think he's avoiding it: he's just waiting for an engraved invitation. He's certainly not running after it. |
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Post by snacky on Jul 1, 2014 3:31:01 GMT
Aaaaaaaaaah, I was struck by enlightenment while I was out and about. William didn't go after Julia to Buffalo because Julia didn't invite him.
He spent months staring at the ceiling, and possibly fondling that engagement ring, waiting for Julia to invite him to Buffalo. Meanwhile she was waiting for him to come after her, and eventually allowed Darcy Garland to court her. This is why William looked utterly helpless as the train pulled away. He was then at the mercy of whether Julia would invite him to Buffalo or not. This may be why William didn't see Julia for months after her murder trial and why he didn't follow up after she turned down his proposal either: he was waiting for her to invite him to do so somehow. Why is this reminding me of vampire mythos somehow, lol...? (meanwhile, Julia underlines the passage in Dracula about inviting the Vampyr in...). There's probably some lame reason going back to his Mom or some other influential female figure (the nuns?) that led to this invitation hangup. I wonder if the writers even realize this. This may not be in their show Bible, but it's the only reason that fits all the facts in hindsight.  Another Freudian, and perhaps pathetic, insight I had: perhaps with "permission from mommy" the "dark places" become not so dark? William needs permission from Julia...? On the butterfly theme, and William trying to come to grips with women as autonomous human beings rather than objects for his logical analysis... William's fascination with female autonomy and his ability to resist the usual male urge to apply control in the name of "reason" is a whole other question. Maybe it has something to do with his compartmentalization? Not only is "the personal" in a different category as "the professional", but he can switch off his analytical mind when he's dwelling in the "personal" compartment...? |
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Post by snacky on Jul 1, 2014 6:50:40 GMT
As in everything else, 22OntarioStreet captured the minute that William seemed to be taking notes on eye contact communication with Julia in Dead End Street. Tell me I'm not imagining William's maximum overdoing it here:
Sorry, William, it's too late for mesmerism. She's already engaged.
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Post by carco on Jul 2, 2014 15:31:26 GMT
As in everything else, 22OntarioStreet captured the minute that William seemed to be taking notes on eye contact communication with Julia in Dead End Street. Tell me I'm not imagining William's maximum overdoing it here: Credit for both: 22OntarioStreetSorry, William, it's too late for mesmerism. She's already engaged. Once again, thank you for the homework assignment. I haven't re-watched Dead End Street in a while. Hmmm, so my thoughts on the scene where Julia discusses who they communicate through eye contact, that sudden oddly intense eye contact appears to be him testing the theory. I think he's trying to tell her he still loves her. I think Julia did actually "get" his non-verbal eye message based on their reaction to the moment and based on a conversation they have later when they are discussing Lydia but it appears obvious that they also talking about William. (Not direct quotes) (Wm)...she lives in her own world (Jul)... such a lonely place (Wm)...why do you say that? (Jul)...because she can't communicate her feelings (Wm)....you believe that makes her unhappy? (Jul)....it would make me unhappy (Wm)...I think there's a solace in certainty and order that sustains her (Jul) ....and that's enough? (Wm) ....sometimes it has to be. It's actually a key to understanding some of what makes William tick. "Sometimes it has to be" seems to indicate that William was not born emotionally detached. He may have been a sensitive and loving boy when his mother was alive and he lived with his family. He likely went into survivor mode and adopted the cool detached nature at an early age in order to protect himself from further pain and loss. |
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Post by snacky on Jul 2, 2014 16:11:17 GMT
Hmmm, so my thoughts on the scene where Julia discusses who they communicate through eye contact, that sudden oddly intense eye contact appears to be him testing the theory. I think he's trying to tell her he still loves her. I think Julia did actually "get" his non-verbal eye message based on their reaction to the moment and based on a conversation they have later when they are discussing Lydia but it appears obvious that they also talking about William. (Not direct quotes) (Wm)...she lives in her own world (Jul)... such a lonely place (Wm)...why do you say that? (Jul)...because she can't communicate her feelings (Wm)....you believe that makes her unhappy? (Jul)....it would make me unhappy (Wm)...I think there's a solace in certainty and order that sustains her (Jul) ....and that's enough? (Wm) ....sometimes it has to be. It's actually a key to understanding some of what makes William tick. "Sometimes it has to be" seems to indicate that William was not born emotionally detached. He may have been a sensitive and loving boy when his mother was alive and he lived with his family. He likely went into survivor mode and adopted the cool detached nature at an early age in order to protect himself from further pain and loss. Yes, I've also drawn that conclusion. William isn't "on the spectrum" himself, but he does tend to be sympathetic to autistic suspects and ones with communication problems because he does feel boxed in somehow. If he did need to read up on nonverbal communications he'd already mastered that skill before the Beaton Manor episode, the awkwardness of the Dead End Street moment seems intentional - almost like he's trying to shout nonverbally: IF THIS IS HOW WE COMMUNICATE NONVERBALLY, DID YOU GET MY MESSAGE? HOW COME YOU AREN'T RESPONDING AS I EXPECTED YOU TO? And, more importantantly: WHY IN GOD'S NAME DIDN'T YOU INVITE ME TO BUFFALO SOONER???!!!! |
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Post by snacky on Jul 2, 2014 16:13:55 GMT
Hmmm, so my thoughts on the scene where Julia discusses who they communicate through eye contact, that sudden oddly intense eye contact appears to be him testing the theory. I think he's trying to tell her he still loves her. I think Julia did actually "get" his non-verbal eye message based on their reaction to the moment and based on a conversation they have later when they are discussing Lydia but it appears obvious that they also talking about William. (Not direct quotes) (Wm)...she lives in her own world (Jul)... such a lonely place (Wm)...why do you say that? (Jul)...because she can't communicate her feelings (Wm)....you believe that makes her unhappy? (Jul)....it would make me unhappy (Wm)...I think there's a solace in certainty and order that sustains her (Jul) ....and that's enough? (Wm) ....sometimes it has to be. It's actually a key to understanding some of what makes William tick. "Sometimes it has to be" seems to indicate that William was not born emotionally detached. He may have been a sensitive and loving boy when his mother was alive and he lived with his family. He likely went into survivor mode and adopted the cool detached nature at an early age in order to protect himself from further pain and loss. Yes, I've also drawn that conclusion. William isn't "on the spectrum" himself, but he does tend to be sympathetic to autistic suspects and ones with communication problems because he does feel boxed in somehow. If he did need to read up on nonverbal communications he'd already mastered that skill before the Beaton Manor episode, the awkwardness of the Dead End Street moment seems intentional - almost like he's trying to shout nonverbally: IF THIS IS HOW WE COMMUNICATE NONVERBALLY, DID YOU GET MY MESSAGE? HOW COME YOU AREN'T RESPONDING AS I EXPECTED YOU TO? And, more importantantly: WHY IN GOD'S NAME DIDN'T YOU INVITE ME TO BUFFALO SOONER???!!!! Hmm, or it might also be: AS YOU WISH(!) |
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Post by carco on Jul 2, 2014 21:16:25 GMT
Yes, I've also drawn that conclusion. William isn't "on the spectrum" himself, but he does tend to be sympathetic to autistic suspects and ones with communication problems because he does feel boxed in somehow. If he did need to read up on nonverbal communications he'd already mastered that skill before the Beaton Manor episode, the awkwardness of the Dead End Street moment seems intentional - almost like he's trying to shout nonverbally: IF THIS IS HOW WE COMMUNICATE NONVERBALLY, DID YOU GET MY MESSAGE? HOW COME YOU AREN'T RESPONDING AS I EXPECTED YOU TO? And, more importantantly: WHY IN GOD'S NAME DIDN'T YOU INVITE ME TO BUFFALO SOONER???!!!! Hmm, or it might be also be: AS YOU WISH(!) ok, I'm folding on this one! I have come to the conclusion that I have absolutely no idea why he does what he does!!   |
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Post by snacky on Jul 2, 2014 22:20:51 GMT
ok, I'm folding on this one! I have come to the conclusion that I have absolutely no idea why he does what he does!! Oooh, I hope you didn't think I was writing in all caps to emphasize my point. I was writing in all caps because I thought William was overdoing the eye contact as a form of yelling with his eyes. As always, my comments are "IMHO". I wouldn't want to steamroll them over anybody.  |
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Interesting comparing Julia's actions with a butterfly....you could be on to something. In his mind the butterfly's actions are so random, it freaks him out. If Julia's actions seem unfathomable to him it could be that sense of 'random" that he has trouble dealing with. He's kind of a straight line thinker.
