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Post by lizmc on Jan 28, 2015 8:09:52 GMT
Exactly! When you go to another country, whether visiting or emigrating you shouldn't expect that country to adapt to you. Unfortunately multiculturalism tells immigrants that they don't have to adapt, the country will adapt to them. Whilst people in the large Canadian cities mainly lost their culture years ago the small towns and villages (I live in a 'town' of 500 people) do still have a Canadian culture and they'd like to keep it thank you very much Mr. Politician. They don't want to be told how they should treat 'outsiders' whether countrymen or immigrants. They'll assess them as they see them and treat them accordingly. Part of the problem is Canadians don't know what Canadian culture is any more. We (hubby and I) see it because it's different from what we grew up with but it's still hard to put your finger on what it is exactly other than it's not American culture! Britain is now experiencing problems with it's 'immigrants' as it didn't make it clear that when they came to Britain they were expected to assimilate. The rest of the world needs to learn from their mistakes. What's the point of emigrating to another country if you're just going to try and live like you did 'at home'? If that's how you want to live you may as well stay where you are. I also object to the people that bring their country's problems with them, once again if you wish to live with the problems stay where you are. I'm not xenophobic, I lived in Toronto and loved it because of the diversity but when people use the racism card and anti immigrant card all the time, especially in a country that goes out of it's way to make them welcome, it makes you think twice. I will now step off my soapbox and return you to our regularly scheduled programme. As a multi-generational Canadian, I agree to a certain extent, however, this is nothing new and Canadians always seem to want to "hyphenate" themselves, if such a word exists. How often do you hear a Canadian refer to themselves as Irish-Canadian or Italian-Canadian, when their families have been here for several generations? I have had more arguments with people insisting I am Scottish, for no other reason than my surname is Scottish. I haven't had an ancestor born in Scotland since before 1800, and I have just as many ancestors from Ireland and England, with a few thrown in from the States and Switzerland. In other words, I'm a typical Canadian. I've been warbling along about the Orange Lodge......they did exactly what you are complaining about, in the 19th century, in that they flooded large parts of Ontario and took over. We also have the example of expansion into the West and the impact that had on the First Nations and Metis, leading to the Red River Rebellion and the execution of Louis Riel. Canadian culture is something that has been ever evolving and changing and we often define ourselves as something we are not, as in we are not American. In Murdoch's time, that probably would have been the primary defining thing. This is one of the reasons I love Murdoch and hope it carries on. It is a programme based on Canadians telling their own story, for a change, because that is something we haven't done a very good job of . Now. I'll get off of my soapbox...... |
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Post by snacky on Jan 28, 2015 8:11:12 GMT
He was only concerned about the tennis club's safety because he'd unknowingly gotten one of their members beaten up by Brackenreid. I've just noticed in a few episodes throughout the seasons that his determination and quest for the truth made him cold and tactless at times. I think it was more than the guy was beaten up and it wasn't William's fault. He'd come to realize over the course of the investigation that these men were decent human beings that just had a predilection and they were trying to make a life for themselves. At the end he told the priest they were, by all standards, good men. This is why he warned Jeffrey to move their meetings. William's quest for the truth does make him seem cold and tactless at times but when he realizes the harm he's done he's never indifferent to it. Gosh darn it. A few weeks ago I wrote something up about William's background as a pauper student in a Jesuit school, his beholdeness to the charity of God, and how that may have developed his humble stance and eternally open mind as a detective. I thought I put that under the William Murdoch category, but it seems I didn't. Anyway, the basic point was that William is religiously humble and that predisposes him to tolerance, at least once he thinks things through. |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 28, 2015 8:24:07 GMT
Multiculturalism in Canada: I thought that included Native Americans in Canada and also embraced all sorts of diversity (gender, religion, sexuality, etc.). MM doesn't do as much as it should with multiculturalism, but they do try to add it into a few storylines each year. They did a Native one just last week. The Natives were there "before" the European-origin Canadians, so I think that at least should be marked. Were the Chinese in Chinatown there as long as the Europeans? Canada seems multicultural to me. But perhaps I misunderstand how the politicians are using the term there - is it code for bringing in cheap labor to displace people from jobs, etc.? You're misunderstanding it. Official mulitculturalism means people are free to 'celebrate' their culture 100% of the time. If I wanted to live my life as if I was still in England then the government will support that, sometimes even financially. Not sure how it is now but language lessons for kids used to be subsidized. I'm not talking English or French, this is lessons in Hungarian, Latvian, pidgin English if that's the language their parents spoke in their native country. I'm all for celebrating your roots but not at everyone else's expense. We are still pretty English at home but when we're out we're just like everyone around us, we're now Canadian. I know it's seems easy for us, we speak the same language and it seems like the cultures would be very similar but they're not. There was a definite culture shock when we arrived and it took about six months to get used to it. Over the next couple of years we gradually became less English outside the home, we assimilated. This is what all immigrants should do, this country celebrates everyone else's cultures at the expense of it's own. There does seem to have been a resurgence of Canadian pride recently but we're still officially multicultural. I don't see how you can build a country and maintain a cohesive population when no one is expected to be 'Canadian'. I don't believe in English Canadians, Italian Canadians, German Canadians, we are all Canadians or we're nothing. You can't unite a country when no one identifies as a citizen of that country. Btw, the Chinese were some of the first immigrants and built this country with sweat and tears. |
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Post by lizmc on Jan 28, 2015 8:31:21 GMT
Multiculturalism in Canada: I thought that included Native Americans in Canada and also embraced all sorts of diversity (gender, religion, sexuality, etc.). MM doesn't do as much as it should with multiculturalism, but they do try to add it into a few storylines each year. They did a Native one just last week. The Natives were there "before" the European-origin Canadians, so I think that at least should be marked. Were the Chinese in Chinatown there as long as the Europeans? Canada seems multicultural to me. But perhaps I misunderstand how the politicians are using the term there - is it code for bringing in cheap labor to displace people from jobs, etc.? Multiculturalism is a comparatively new term in Canada and would not have been used in Murdoch's time, however, one of the most profound differences between Canada and the US is that we have never been a "Melting Pot".....personally, I think MM does do a good job of covering the diversity that existed in Toronto at that time. After all, it is a murder mystery show and not a documentary. It portrays Toronto as it was, that is, a British-centric city, dominated, as I've said before by the Orange Lodge. The Chinese would have come to Canada, for the most part in the 1880s, as cheap labour to build the Canadian Pacific Railway and had very few rights. In the episode set in Chinatown, you heard the Chinese businessman refer to bringing people over and paying the head tax. They really were treated appallingly, and would have been a fairly small minority.
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Post by snacky on Jan 28, 2015 8:35:37 GMT
It was often commingled with his self-righteousness where he was dismissive to someone's face or briefly in the case of his half-brother, behind their back. I've just noticed in a few episodes throughout the seasons that his determination and quest for the truth made him cold and tactless at times. I think it's because Lillian adds to Emily's story that I don't mind her attitude as much as others seem to. I like that they haven't written Emily as some poor spinster who's pining after the one who got away and that she's getting more screen time. I'd actually like an Emily centric episode although I doubt it will actually happen, at least in this season. I'd just like to know more about her, I mean we know about her ex-fiance and her background's been alluded to but the only really Emily centric episode we've had so far is the one in Staircase to Heaven. It would be great if Emily found a relationship with a radical female because it would greatly add to the story in a dramatic sense and its something that's never really been explored in MM before; Murdochophobia had one of the victims in a lesbian affair where the victim had a 'beard' marriage to a gay man and obviously Til Death Do Us Part gave a glimpse but having a homosexual relationship as a consistent storyline between a lead character would be fantastic in my opinion. The fact that William does have flaws is part of what makes him interesting, and you will find a whole lot of analysis of those flaws on this forum !
I'm willing to extend the idea of psychological complexity and "flaws" to women, too, and not just hold them up for criticism - I think this is part of why PM is surprised at the reaction to Lillian. He's seen MM fans go on for pages justifying the most awful words and actions from William. He probably expected this same treatment for all characters. Lillian just hasn't been developed enough for us to get any analytical "claws" into her, yet, though, man or woman. I don't think it's a matter of sexism.
Emilyyyyyyy on the other hand. I'm starting to get revved up about her. She's been a blank slate for so long! But now Lillian has given her a bit of a mirror to play off of. I'm already forming a clearer picture of Emily as a perfectionist and an dissatisfied conformist by day, thrillseeker by night. Now that's an interesting character! FINALLY!
And now that we are seeing an interesting character emerge, I wouldn't mind seeing an Emily-centric ep either. I didn't thing Staircase to Heaven was bad once I figured the card thing out. I think Maureen Jennings is a particularly good writer for Emily since she's mystery-centric and can write spooky.
I also agree that Lillian is an add: she might be rude to Julia, but that's a risk the writers were taking along with her sapphist(?) passes at Emily. I'm all for anything that makes MM more interesting. Also, I don't know where the Lillian storyline is leading - my guesses have been pretty far-flung. I have to say that it's NOT a good sign when I speculate on forthcoming plots and my accuracy meter runs high. That means the plots have become very predictable. I *LIKE* to be punked! With Lillian I don't know whether she's going to be Emily's permanent main squeeze, whether she's going to end up involved with the Pankhursts in England, whether that slightly fevered look in her eyes means she's going to detonate a bomb under Station House 4 at the end of the Season because Emily snubbed her...well, anything could happen with her. Awesomesauce.
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lilac
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Post by lilac on Jan 28, 2015 8:38:05 GMT
He was only concerned about the tennis club's safety because he'd unknowingly gotten one of their members beaten up by Brackenreid. I've just noticed in a few episodes throughout the seasons that his determination and quest for the truth made him cold and tactless at times. I think it was more than the guy was beaten up and it wasn't William's fault. He'd come to realize over the course of the investigation that these men were decent human beings that just had a predilection and they were trying to make a life for themselves. At the end he told the priest they were, by all standards, good men. This is why he warned Jeffrey to move their meetings. William's quest for the truth does make him seem cold and tactless at times but when he realizes the harm he's done he's never indifferent to it. I'll concede there was more to it than just that and I think it helped humanise them because he saw how they were being persecuted. It wasn't William's fault exactly but he heard Brackenreid assaulting the guy for information and he merely turned and walked away instead of jumping in telling Brax he was going overboard. I think that's one of the things that makes William's behaviour redeemable. When he realises the harm he's cause, he generally makes up for it somehow. |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 28, 2015 8:43:04 GMT
Canadian culture is something that has been ever evolving and changing and we often define ourselves as something we are not, as in we are not American. In Murdoch's time, that probably would have been the primary defining thing. This is one of the reasons I love Murdoch and hope it carries on. It is a programme based on Canadians telling their own story, for a change, because that is something we haven't done a very good job of . Now. I'll get off of my soapbox...... I don't think Canadians really know what their culture is themselves. It's only outsiders that see that things are different here, even if they can't put their finger on what. It's like when you go over the border to the US it just feels different no matter how many times you cross. It's like the air is different. Canadians haven't done any kind of job telling their own story, I don't think they've tried until recently. That's one of the things I love about MM, it's a Canadian made show telling a Canadian story and EXPORTING it! Despite the fact it's written by a transplanted Brit!! How many Canadian shows pretend to be in the US? Admittedly not as many as there use to be, times are finally changing, but they're still out there. It's time Canadians realized that they're just as important and interesting as the US or Europe. I agree that in Murdoch's time not being American would probably be the primary defining feature. It was after all one of the reasons Canada was founded in the first place. I also love the way MM deals with 'the Americans'. Actually I'm surprised Americans love it so much considering the way America is treated in the show. |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 28, 2015 8:46:29 GMT
In the episode set in Chinatown, you heard the Chinese businessman refer to bringing people over and paying the head tax. They really were treated appallingly, and would have been a fairly small minority.
Whilst the Chinese community in Toronto may have been small the number of Chinese in Canada at the time was staggeringly high. I believe one of the largest groups of immigrants at the time. As you said, imported as cheap labour. |
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Post by monty151 on Jan 28, 2015 8:47:42 GMT
Emily would treat a relationship with LM as a science experiment. I don't think Emily is attracted to women per se but the unknown aspect. She has done the men part of her experiment so now it's time to try women. She never got to try the experiment in S5 fully so this time she will go the whole way.
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lilac
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Post by lilac on Jan 28, 2015 8:48:09 GMT
It was often commingled with his self-righteousness where he was dismissive to someone's face or briefly in the case of his half-brother, behind their back. I've just noticed in a few episodes throughout the seasons that his determination and quest for the truth made him cold and tactless at times. I think it's because Lillian adds to Emily's story that I don't mind her attitude as much as others seem to. I like that they haven't written Emily as some poor spinster who's pining after the one who got away and that she's getting more screen time. I'd actually like an Emily centric episode although I doubt it will actually happen, at least in this season. I'd just like to know more about her, I mean we know about her ex-fiance and her background's been alluded to but the only really Emily centric episode we've had so far is the one in Staircase to Heaven. It would be great if Emily found a relationship with a radical female because it would greatly add to the story in a dramatic sense and its something that's never really been explored in MM before; Murdochophobia had one of the victims in a lesbian affair where the victim had a 'beard' marriage to a gay man and obviously Til Death Do Us Part gave a glimpse but having a homosexual relationship as a consistent storyline between a lead character would be fantastic in my opinion. The fact that William does have flaws is part of what makes him interesting, and you will find a whole lot of analysis of those flaws on this forum !
I'm willing to extend the idea of psychological complexity and "flaws" to women, too, and not just hold them up for criticism - I think this is part of why PM is surprised at the reaction to Lillian. He's seen MM fans go on for pages justifying the most awful words and actions from William. He probably expected this same treatment for all characters. Lillian just hasn't been developed enough for us to get any analytical "claws" into her, yet, though, man or woman. I don't think it's a matter of sexism.
Emilyyyyyyy on the other hand. I'm starting to get revved up about her. She's been a blank slate for so long! But now Lillian has given her a bit of a mirror to play off of. I'm already forming a clearer picture of Emily as a perfectionist and an dissatisfied conformist by day, thrillseeker by night. Now that's an interesting character! FINALLY!
And now that we are seeing an interesting character emerge, I wouldn't mind seeing an Emily-centric ep either. I didn't thing Staircase to Heaven was bad once I figured the card thing out. I think Maureen Jennings is a particularly good writer for Emily since she's mystery-centric and can write spooky.
I also agree that Lillian is an add: she might be rude to Julia, but that's a risk the writers were taking along with her sapphist(?) passes at Emily. I'm all for anything that makes MM more interesting. Also, I don't know where the Lillian storyline is leading - my guesses have been pretty far-flung. I have to say that it's NOT a good sign when I speculate on forthcoming plots and my accuracy meter runs high. That means the plots have become very predictable. I *LIKE* to be punked! With Lillian I don't know whether she's going to be Emily's permanent main squeeze, whether she's going to end up involved with the Pankhursts in England, whether that slightly fevered look in her eyes means she's going to detonate a bomb under Station House 4 at the end of the Season because Emily snubbed her...well, anything could happen with her. Awesomesauce.
I'm going to use a phrase someone mentioned earlier but I don't think Lillian is long for this world. She's too extreme and unless Emily were to soften her up I don't see them lasting. I can see her either doing something extreme and getting arrested or going on the run or I can see Emily rejecting her either because she's not ready to explore those feelings or I can see them coming to an impasse and breaking up because Emily isn't ready to be a full-fledged radical activist. |
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Post by snacky on Jan 28, 2015 8:49:03 GMT
You can't unite a country when no one identifies as a citizen of that country. The US has the same problem, and I think a large part of it has to do with lack of agreement on what that central cultural identity is so it can be consolidated via the school textbooks and dispersed via national festivals and celebrations. Whenever someone attempts something it ends up being at some extreme end of the political spectrum and totally unacceptable. Example: textbooks that remove Jefferson and include a whole chapter on Reaganomics....or worse, equal time to Intelligent Design with cowboys riding dinosaurs.  I think we were generally screwed around the 60s when people developed the notion of "culture war", so various interests have been waging culture war to stuff various ideologies down everyone's throats ever since - it's very hard to make any decisions by thinking of people as people any more. There's just a lot of competing lies from competing groups. |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 28, 2015 8:50:09 GMT
I'll concede there was more to it than just that and I think it helped humanise them because he saw how they were being persecuted. It wasn't William's fault exactly but he heard Brackenreid assaulting the guy for information and he merely turned and walked away instead of jumping in telling Brax he was going overboard. William knows if the inspector wants to beat something out of a suspect he can't do anything to stop him. He doesn't have to like it. He's tried to talk the inspector out of it on occasion, suggesting he should be the one to conduct the interrogation, not always successfully. |
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Post by snacky on Jan 28, 2015 8:51:23 GMT
I'll concede there was more to it than just that and I think it helped humanise them because he saw how they were being persecuted. It wasn't William's fault exactly but he heard Brackenreid assaulting the guy for information and he merely turned and walked away instead of jumping in telling Brax he was going overboard. I think that's one of the things that makes William's behaviour redeemable. When he realises the harm he's cause, he generally makes up for it somehow. Have you watched through season 4 yet? There's a reason William doesn't intervene and lecture the Inspector about going overboard. At some level all of MM is one long Pilgrim's Progress for William! And then there's the first episode of Season 8...  |
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Post by snacky on Jan 28, 2015 8:54:25 GMT
I'm going to use a phrase someone mentioned earlier but I don't think Lillian is long for this world. She's too extreme and unless Emily were to soften her up I don't see them lasting. I can see her either doing something extreme and getting arrested or going on the run or I can see Emily rejecting her either because she's not ready to explore those feelings or I can see them coming to an impasse and breaking up because Emily isn't ready to be a full-fledged radical activist. I get the vibe she literally isn't long for this world just because of a certain look she has. But that just makes me more interested in what her fate will be. |
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lilac
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Post by lilac on Jan 28, 2015 9:05:36 GMT
I'm going to use a phrase someone mentioned earlier but I don't think Lillian is long for this world. She's too extreme and unless Emily were to soften her up I don't see them lasting. I can see her either doing something extreme and getting arrested or going on the run or I can see Emily rejecting her either because she's not ready to explore those feelings or I can see them coming to an impasse and breaking up because Emily isn't ready to be a full-fledged radical activist. I get the vibe she literally isn't long for this world just because of a certain look she has. But that just makes me more interested in what her fate will be. Hopefully it will be a good sendoff. It'd be satisfying for me if she pulled a Sally Pendrick and committed some extremist act and went on the run. That reminds me, I wonder what kind of story it would take bring Sally Pendrick back ? |
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I think we were generally screwed around the 60s when people developed the notion of "culture war", so various interests have been waging culture war to stuff various ideologies down everyone's throats ever since - it's very hard to make any decisions by thinking of people as people any more. There's just a lot of competing lies from competing groups.
