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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 5, 2014 17:01:52 GMT
If' there's another thread about the books, please let me know and I'll move this.
So, I've managed to read Except the Dying and half of Dragon's Tail, and at first, it was slow going.
The only character I liked for a while was Crabtree (who's married with four kids and another on the way), but Murdoch's growing on me. He's very much a man of his time, and he's no Detective Gadget, yet he's a sensitive soul, with a kind heart. He's Catholic, but he's not anywhere near as religious as tvWilliam, and I wonder why they made that decision? I swear, if he weren't a fictional character and if he were a friend of mine, I'd be trying to fix him up with everyone I knew (after I talked him into getting rid of the sealskin coat-oh no)! Yes, he's horny, but really, he's very lonely, and he just wants a wife and kids-someone to love-and he's a kindhearted man with love to give.
His flashback scenes with Liza are heartbreaking, and I feel bad for book William in a way that I never felt for TV!William over Liza. He goes to dance classes just so he can be close to and even touch a woman-his life is out of balance and he's trying to right it. It seems rather creepy at first until it becomes apparent that all he wants is a feminine touch in his life-he just wants someone to love, and he's trying in his awkward, fumbling way.
Most heartbreaking line so far-the part where he was angry with the priest and God for "taking" his sister into a cloistered convent-he wanted both of their children to grow up playing with one another and they just took that from him. Also pretty angsty, another priest telling a grieving William that God needed and loved Liza more than William did, and W being angry that God spared him as well.
So far, the only Ettie Weston vibe I'm getting is that he enjoyed holding her when he saved her life. I don't think he's falling for her, but he really needs some touch and affection-and he's seriously conflicted because this prostitute is the only one who will give it to him (for now).
Just my random collection of thoughts for now.
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Post by Hodge on Dec 5, 2014 17:56:54 GMT
If' there's another thread about the books, please let me know and I'll move this. So, I've managed to read Except the Dying and half of Dragon's Tail, and at first, it was slow going. The only character I liked for a while was Crabtree (who's married with four kids and another on the way), but Murdoch's growing on me. He's very much a man of his time, and he's no Detective Gadget, yet he's a sensitive soul, with a kind heart. He's Catholic, but he's not anywhere near as religious as tvWilliam, and I wonder why they made that decision? I swear, if he weren't a fictional character and if he were a friend of mine, I'd be trying to fix him up with everyone I knew (after I talked him into getting rid of the sealskin coat-oh no)! Yes, he's horny, but really, he's very lonely, and he just wants a wife and kids-someone to love-and he's a kindhearted man with love to give. His flashback scenes with Liza are heartbreaking, and I feel bad for book William in a way that I never felt for TV!William over Liza. He goes to dance classes just so he can be close to and even touch a woman-his life is out of balance and he's trying to right it. It seems rather creepy at first until it becomes apparent that all he wants is a feminine touch in his life-he just wants someone to love, and he's trying in his awkward, fumbling way. Most heartbreaking line so far-the part where he was angry with the priest and God for "taking" his sister into a cloistered convent-he wanted both of their children to grow up playing with one another and they just took that from him. Also pretty angsty, another priest telling a grieving William that God needed and loved Liza more than William did, and W being angry that God spared him as well. So far, the only Ettie Weston vibe I'm getting is that he enjoyed holding her when he saved her life. I don't think he's falling for her, but he really needs some touch and affection-and he's seriously conflicted because this prostitute is the only one who will give it to him (for now). Just my random collection of thoughts for now. Excellent review and I agree. I'm not up to anywhere near where I began to like William, I started reading Except the Dying again last weekend but then other things got in the way. I'll have to get back to it. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 5, 2014 18:24:51 GMT
If' there's another thread about the books, please let me know and I'll move this. So, I've managed to read Except the Dying and half of Dragon's Tail, and at first, it was slow going. The only character I liked for a while was Crabtree (who's married with four kids and another on the way), but Murdoch's growing on me. He's very much a man of his time, and he's no Detective Gadget, yet he's a sensitive soul, with a kind heart. He's Catholic, but he's not anywhere near as religious as tvWilliam, and I wonder why they made that decision? I swear, if he weren't a fictional character and if he were a friend of mine, I'd be trying to fix him up with everyone I knew (after I talked him into getting rid of the sealskin coat-oh no)! Yes, he's horny, but really, he's very lonely, and he just wants a wife and kids-someone to love-and he's a kindhearted man with love to give. His flashback scenes with Liza are heartbreaking, and I feel bad for book William in a way that I never felt for TV!William over Liza. He goes to dance classes just so he can be close to and even touch a woman-his life is out of balance and he's trying to right it. It seems rather creepy at first until it becomes apparent that all he wants is a feminine touch in his life-he just wants someone to love, and he's trying in his awkward, fumbling way. Most heartbreaking line so far-the part where he was angry with the priest and God for "taking" his sister into a cloistered convent-he wanted both of their children to grow up playing with one another and they just took that from him. Also pretty angsty, another priest telling a grieving William that God needed and loved Liza more than William did, and W being angry that God spared him as well. So far, the only Ettie Weston vibe I'm getting is that he enjoyed holding her when he saved her life. I don't think he's falling for her, but he really needs some touch and affection-and he's seriously conflicted because this prostitute is the only one who will give it to him (for now). Just my random collection of thoughts for now. I haven't read either of those, but apparently I need to - I think I would get a much better impression of William from them. In the books I read he was more horny and less caring. He does try to do his job in investigating murders, but other than that I didn't find him very likeable. I didn't find much presence of Catholicism in the books I read either - he was a lapsed Catholic. I do like the fact that they brought religion into TV MM because it's an important issue of the historical period and it gives them a way to talk about issues like prejudice. I also think it's been generally depicted well without hogging screen time or getting preachy. I don't think it's been disruptive. Regarding the feminine touch - 19th century men needed women to do their cooking and laundry!  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 5, 2014 19:13:45 GMT
If' there's another thread about the books, please let me know and I'll move this. So, I've managed to read Except the Dying and half of Dragon's Tail, and at first, it was slow going. The only character I liked for a while was Crabtree (who's married with four kids and another on the way), but Murdoch's growing on me. He's very much a man of his time, and he's no Detective Gadget, yet he's a sensitive soul, with a kind heart. He's Catholic, but he's not anywhere near as religious as tvWilliam, and I wonder why they made that decision? I swear, if he weren't a fictional character and if he were a friend of mine, I'd be trying to fix him up with everyone I knew (after I talked him into getting rid of the sealskin coat-oh no)! Yes, he's horny, but really, he's very lonely, and he just wants a wife and kids-someone to love-and he's a kindhearted man with love to give. His flashback scenes with Liza are heartbreaking, and I feel bad for book William in a way that I never felt for TV!William over Liza. He goes to dance classes just so he can be close to and even touch a woman-his life is out of balance and he's trying to right it. It seems rather creepy at first until it becomes apparent that all he wants is a feminine touch in his life-he just wants someone to love, and he's trying in his awkward, fumbling way. Most heartbreaking line so far-the part where he was angry with the priest and God for "taking" his sister into a cloistered convent-he wanted both of their children to grow up playing with one another and they just took that from him. Also pretty angsty, another priest telling a grieving William that God needed and loved Liza more than William did, and W being angry that God spared him as well. So far, the only Ettie Weston vibe I'm getting is that he enjoyed holding her when he saved her life. I don't think he's falling for her, but he really needs some touch and affection-and he's seriously conflicted because this prostitute is the only one who will give it to him (for now). Just my random collection of thoughts for now. I haven't read either of those, but apparently I need to - I think I would get a much better impression of William from them. In the books I read he was more horny and less caring. He does try to do his job in investigating murders, but other than that I didn't find him very likeable. I didn't find much presence of Catholicism in the books I read either - he was a lapsed Catholic. I do like the fact that they brought religion into TV MM because it's an important issue of the historical period and it gives them a way to talk about issues like prejudice. I also think it's been generally depicted well without hogging screen time or getting preachy. I don't think it's been disruptive. Regarding the feminine touch - 19th century men needed women to do their cooking and laundry! No, Mrs. K has been doing everything for him, so I don't think that's fair. He's looking for a feminine presence because he wants to hold them, kiss them, be intimate and love them. He's lonely. Do I think that his wife would cook and clean? Yes, but that's not why he's looking for a woman. It's sweeter than that. I like how they've portrayed William's religion as well-I'm just curious that they chose to make tv!William religious in a way that book or movie William is not. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 5, 2014 20:01:52 GMT
I like how they've portrayed William's religion as well-I'm just curious that they chose to make tv!William religious in a way that book or movie William is not. My take on this is that in books it's easier to show what William is thinking, so you can show the impact religion is having on his inner life. On TV it's very difficult to show that. On the other hand, there was the great opportunity to have Catholicism stand in for every other type of prejudice, so I think what they did to externalize William's belief was a good call. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 5, 2014 22:52:46 GMT
He's just met Dr. Ogden in Dragon's Tail-but only over the phone, yet he's more than intrigued. He's now wondering what she looks like. Hah! Even book!William likes 'em smart!
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 6, 2014 3:33:47 GMT
I haven't read either of those, but apparently I need to - I think I would get a much better impression of William from them. In the books I read he was more horny and less caring. He does try to do his job in investigating murders, but other than that I didn't find him very likeable. I didn't find much presence of Catholicism in the books I read either - he was a lapsed Catholic. In Except the Dying, it took a while to get going on his character. Then, about 3/4 of the way through, you start to get more insight into his character, and he becomes more likeable. We've said he's horny, but I think affection starved is more like it. If it was just about sex, he would be getting it on with almost any woman, but he's not. What he wants is intimacy. Of course, he's just met Enid (who's Welsh and a Protestant), and I know from you guys that he does get it on with her, but I don't know the particulars just yet. All in all, I'm enjoying the books more than I thought I would. If you go into them expecting them to be like the show, then yeah, I think you're going to be disappointed. But, if you get into them knowing that even amongst the harshness and coldness, there's a kind-hearted man who does want to do the right thing, and tries his best, you can see where some of tv!William came from. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 6, 2014 5:07:27 GMT
In Except the Dying, it took a while to get going on his character. Then, about 3/4 of the way through, you start to get more insight into his character, and he becomes more likeable. We've said he's horny, but I think affection starved is more like it. If it was just about sex, he would be getting it on with almost any woman, but he's not. What he wants is intimacy. Of course, he's just met Enid (who's Welsh and a Protestant), and I know from you guys that he does get it on with her, but I don't know the particulars just yet. All in all, I'm enjoying the books more than I thought I would. If you go into them expecting them to be like the show, then yeah, I think you're going to be disappointed. But, if you get into them knowing that even amongst the harshness and coldness, there's a kind-hearted man who does want to do the right thing, and tries his best, you can see where some of tv!William came from. I lost some sympathy for him in the course of how he pursued his relationship with Enid, and he's not good with kids (Alwyn) at all. On the other hand, his relationship with the Kitchens' is very sweet, so I think my impression was just soured by where I left off reading. Over all, those books just left me feeling grungy. That's probably the mark of good history, but perhaps I need some good historical fantasy right now - so I will take TV!William's clean collars, white teeth, and propriety in any weather. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 6, 2014 5:36:50 GMT
In Except the Dying, it took a while to get going on his character. Then, about 3/4 of the way through, you start to get more insight into his character, and he becomes more likeable. We've said he's horny, but I think affection starved is more like it. If it was just about sex, he would be getting it on with almost any woman, but he's not. What he wants is intimacy. Of course, he's just met Enid (who's Welsh and a Protestant), and I know from you guys that he does get it on with her, but I don't know the particulars just yet. All in all, I'm enjoying the books more than I thought I would. If you go into them expecting them to be like the show, then yeah, I think you're going to be disappointed. But, if you get into them knowing that even amongst the harshness and coldness, there's a kind-hearted man who does want to do the right thing, and tries his best, you can see where some of tv!William came from. I lost some sympathy for him in the course of how he pursued his relationship with Enid, and he's not good with kids (Alwyn) at all. On the other hand, his relationship with the Kitchens' is very sweet, so I think my impression was just soured by where I left off reading. Over all, those books just left me feeling grungy. That's probably the mark of good history, but perhaps I need some good historical fantasy right now - so I will take TV!William's clean collars, white teeth, and propriety in any weather. And ultimately, that's the difference. The show does and should get high marks for historical accuracy, but they're definitely taking some artistic and cinematic license-but not a lot-which is okay. The books however, are painstakingly accurate-a facet MJ wanted absolutely to get right, and I do respect her for it. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 6, 2014 7:06:04 GMT
And ultimately, that's the difference. The show does and should get high marks for historical accuracy, but they're definitely taking some artistic and cinematic license-but not a lot-which is okay. The books however, are painstakingly accurate-a facet MJ wanted absolutely to get right, and I do respect her for it. I totally respect it, and I don't want to bag on the books at all. I know a lot of people in Canada lionize those books. It's just a matter of personal taste: I'm preferring the fantasy William we get on TV, and I like his personality better as well, even if it's less realistic. But my life is hard right now, so I need that level of fantasy.  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 6, 2014 18:28:48 GMT
And ultimately, that's the difference. The show does and should get high marks for historical accuracy, but they're definitely taking some artistic and cinematic license-but not a lot-which is okay. The books however, are painstakingly accurate-a facet MJ wanted absolutely to get right, and I do respect her for it. I totally respect it, and I don't want to bag on the books at all. I know a lot of people in Canada lionize those books. It's just a matter of personal taste: I'm preferring the fantasy William we get on TV, and I like his personality better as well, even if it's less realistic. But my life is hard right now, so I need that level of fantasy. I don't know that book!William is as hot as tv!William (in fact, I kinda doubt it), but he was clearly very physically fit. He takes pride in being a keen cyclist, and I totally thought of you Snacky, when he was doing his physical exercises (crunches and push ups). |
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Post by snacky on Dec 6, 2014 20:00:09 GMT
I totally respect it, and I don't want to bag on the books at all. I know a lot of people in Canada lionize those books. It's just a matter of personal taste: I'm preferring the fantasy William we get on TV, and I like his personality better as well, even if it's less realistic. But my life is hard right now, so I need that level of fantasy. I don't know that book!William is as hot as tv!William (in fact, I kinda doubt it), but he was clearly very physically fit. He takes pride in being a keen cyclist, and I totally thought of you Snacky, when he was doing his physical exercises (crunches and push ups). The mustache and the smelly seal coat are deal breakers. Not to mention the detective gadget thing gives TV!William 1000x adorkable appeal! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 8, 2014 17:51:25 GMT
I'm probably talking to myself here, but here's a another difference between the books and the show:
Crabtree: "Don't let him get to you, sir. He's a first-class fart if I can put it that way."
Murdoch: "You certainly can, George."
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Post by snacky on Dec 8, 2014 21:47:16 GMT
I'm probably talking to myself here, but here's a another difference between the books and the show: Crabtree: "Don't let him get to you, sir. He's a first-class fart if I can put it that way." Murdoch: "You certainly can, George." The Lord's name, Sir! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 17, 2014 19:20:20 GMT
In Except the Dying, it took a while to get going on his character. Then, about 3/4 of the way through, you start to get more insight into his character, and he becomes more likeable. We've said he's horny, but I think affection starved is more like it. If it was just about sex, he would be getting it on with almost any woman, but he's not. What he wants is intimacy. Of course, he's just met Enid (who's Welsh and a Protestant), and I know from you guys that he does get it on with her, but I don't know the particulars just yet. All in all, I'm enjoying the books more than I thought I would. If you go into them expecting them to be like the show, then yeah, I think you're going to be disappointed. But, if you get into them knowing that even amongst the harshness and coldness, there's a kind-hearted man who does want to do the right thing, and tries his best, you can see where some of tv!William came from. I lost some sympathy for him in the course of how he pursued his relationship with Enid, and he's not good with kids (Alwyn) at all. On the other hand, his relationship with the Kitchens' is very sweet, so I think my impression was just soured by where I left off reading. Over all, those books just left me feeling grungy. That's probably the mark of good history, but perhaps I need some good historical fantasy right now - so I will take TV!William's clean collars, white teeth, and propriety in any weather. Interesting to see that she seduced him first...and while he was kinda using her as his mistress while he was deciding whether or not he wanted to marry her, she does tell him from the beginning that she's not sure she can reciprocate his feelings, putting the seeds of doubt in his head. So, it appears that she had her doubts as well-she didn't know whether or not she wanted a booty call or a husband-definitely vacillating.
Also, Alwyn was a sniveling mama's boy who Enid made clear would always come before William-not the most attractive of propositions for anyone. William tried to get the boy to like him, but Alwyn wasn't interested in sharing mama. It wouldn't have been a happy marriage, and that's what William wanted-he wanted a lover and confidante/not just a housewife. That is a similarity between the books and tv shows/William does want to come home and share all the details of his day with his lady-something both William's recognize Enid would never do. Enid would be the perfect traditional housewife-Julia/Amy are "life partners" if you get the distinction. |
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