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Post by snacky on Feb 21, 2015 2:33:05 GMT
Many people who "don't give a toss" whether Emily is a sapphist or not, still think Emily would be better off without Lillian. This thread will be for collating those arguments. Here are a few for starters: ...eclair just popped up for Friday MM -- have to finish this project later!  |
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 21, 2015 3:57:17 GMT
I keep going back to Lillian's exchange with Julia in TDWW about their methods fomenting change vs being dismissed as radical. It seems that Julia has done some maturing with her position. She went outside the bounds of socially acceptable behaviour by teaching birth control but got slammed back pretty hard by the law, Darcy and his PTB. She has learned the hard way to pick her battles. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Julia was a lot like Lillian a decade earlier. Maybe the writers are using Lillian as a foil for Julia in addition to providing a very radical plotline for Emily's character.
Lillian's backstory garners her some sympathy from me. The rest of her bad behaviour is bad manners, immaturity and/or fear. I suspect all three. Twenty-somethings are about the most pig-headed, reactive people on the planet...doesn't matter which year!
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Post by cyrious on Mar 16, 2015 20:13:09 GMT
I have nothing against Lillian, I think the character is pretty grounded in well thought out personality archetypes.
I am against their blossoming relationship because I think Emily is a good match for George.
He needs somebody who can share in his whimsy, support him and even show him new things. This new girl for George (yes I know she's from the first episode) just doesn't cut it for me. He needs someone who has a well rounded knowledge, not just an aptitude for it. He can't brainstorm his ideas if he is forever explaining the concepts that he takes the knowledge of for granted. Emily contrasts George's tenderheartedness.
Until they can find a better replacement for her, I stand by George and Emily. (Bring back Ruby???!??)
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Post by tanhere on May 26, 2015 22:18:58 GMT
I like the actress who plays Lillian, and she has sort of grown on me (partially because I have no other choice but to accept her haha) but I do not like her with Emily. Emily and George have each grown since they have went their separate ways especially Emily. I think she deserves a fair shake considering George wasn't completely innocent either. When they were filming the movie at the station house, George flirted with the actress many times which upset Emily.
Yes Emily took advantage of George but I feel like she has matured since. I like their friendship, and its obvious that they still care about each other so I would like to see them rekindle their romance this season.
I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason.
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Post by lea on May 26, 2015 23:58:54 GMT
I like the actress who plays Lillian, and she has sort of grown on me (partially because I have no other choice but to accept her haha) but I do not like her with Emily. Emily and George have each grown since they have went their separate ways especially Emily. I think she deserves a fair shake considering George wasn't completely innocent either. When they were filming the movie at the station house, George flirted with the actress many times which upset Emily. Yes Emily took advantage of George but I feel like she has matured since. I like their friendship, and its obvious that they still care about each other so I would like to see them rekindle their romance this season. I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. I'm betting season 9 will take care of a lot of this. I have a feeling Edna won't be around for the whole season giving Gemily a chance again. & I am sure we'll see more of Lillian's true colors. |
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Post by Hodge on May 27, 2015 1:08:45 GMT
I like the actress who plays Lillian, and she has sort of grown on me (partially because I have no other choice but to accept her haha) but I do not like her with Emily. Emily and George have each grown since they have went their separate ways especially Emily. I think she deserves a fair shake considering George wasn't completely innocent either. When they were filming the movie at the station house, George flirted with the actress many times which upset Emily. Yes Emily took advantage of George but I feel like she has matured since. I like their friendship, and its obvious that they still care about each other so I would like to see them rekindle their romance this season. I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. I don't understand why people think Lillian is up to no good. I just don't see it. I see an arrogant young woman that doesn't take anyone else into consideration, not even Emily. |
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Post by tanhere on May 27, 2015 1:19:45 GMT
Perhaps that's all it is and we are seeing it as more. Whatever it is, she is keeping us guessing or waiting....
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Post by lizmc on May 27, 2015 1:21:01 GMT
I like the actress who plays Lillian, and she has sort of grown on me (partially because I have no other choice but to accept her haha) but I do not like her with Emily. Emily and George have each grown since they have went their separate ways especially Emily. I think she deserves a fair shake considering George wasn't completely innocent either.When they were filming the movie at the station house, George flirted with the actress many times which upset Emily. Yes Emily took advantage of George but I feel like she has matured since. I like their friendship, and its obvious that they still care about each other so I would like to see them rekindle their romance this season. I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. I don't understand why people think Lillian is up to no good. I just don't see it. I see an arrogant young woman that doesn't take anyone else into consideration, not even Emily. I agree, both that Lillian has no ulterior motive, she is simply self centred and self absorbed, and that the actress playing her is doing a good job.......Personally, I believe that the character of Lillian is written in such a way as to make the viewer step back and take stock of whether they are reacting to the person or the relationship, and that is good writing if it gets you thinking. |
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Post by lea on May 27, 2015 1:41:45 GMT
I like the actress who plays Lillian, and she has sort of grown on me (partially because I have no other choice but to accept her haha) but I do not like her with Emily. Emily and George have each grown since they have went their separate ways especially Emily. I think she deserves a fair shake considering George wasn't completely innocent either. When they were filming the movie at the station house, George flirted with the actress many times which upset Emily. Yes Emily took advantage of George but I feel like she has matured since. I like their friendship, and its obvious that they still care about each other so I would like to see them rekindle their romance this season. I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. I don't understand why people think Lillian is up to no good. I just don't see it. I see an arrogant young woman that doesn't take anyone else into consideration, not even Emily. I also thought Enid was up to no good, so I think I just want these people to be up to something so they'll break up and go away. |
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Post by Hodge on May 27, 2015 2:05:09 GMT
I don't understand why people think Lillian is up to no good. I just don't see it. I see an arrogant young woman that doesn't take anyone else into consideration, not even Emily. I also thought Enid was up to no good, so I think I just want these people to be up to something so they'll break up and go away. Enid was just looking for a father for Alwyn. Didn't like her either. |
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Post by snacky on May 30, 2015 7:24:51 GMT
I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. This is a curious impression. Why do you think this? Who Lillian has represented herself to be: 1) From a good family (and still connected since she made good connections for Julia and Margaret Haile). 2) Cast out of her family because she refused a marriage. (In hindsight, there might have been a sapphist scandal of some sort as well...). 3) Lillian had been studying to be an engineer. After her family cut her off, she went to work. One of her jobs was as a model for Heloise. Her bad experience with Heloise as well as the shock of sudden poverty fueled Lillian's political views. 4) Lillian believes strongly in woman's independence: this includes dress reform, suffrage, and and working. She thinks Julia was held back by her marriage to William, particularly because her wealth (which Lillian didn't have) could have enabled her to remain independent. 5) Lillian is attracted to Emily, an independent, accomplished woman who is as interested in making the most of the modern era as she is. All of this seems pretty clear cut to me. It also provides the source for Lillian's radicalism, whether you like Lillian for it or you don't. IIRC, one of the things that irritated people about Lillian's character is it seemed like the writers were playing up some stereotype about man-hating lesbians, and they would be playing into an even older stereotype if they made Lillian into the protagonist of some psycho-lesbian murder story. So if there is someone up to no good and not what she seems, I hope the writers go for the real surprise - which would be Emily! Perhaps she's been stringing the bodies behind her since childhood!  |
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Post by Hodge on May 30, 2015 16:44:10 GMT
I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. This is a curious impression. Why do you think this? Who Lillian has represented herself to be: 1) From a good family (and still connected since she made good connections for Julia and Margaret Haile). 2) Cast out of her family because she refused a marriage. (In hindsight, there might have been a sapphist scandal of some sort as well...). 3) Lillian had been studying to be an engineer. After her family cut her off, she went to work. One of her jobs was as a model for Heloise. Her bad experience with Heloise as well as the shock of sudden poverty fueled Lillian's political views. 4) Lillian believes strongly in woman's independence: this includes dress reform, suffrage, and and working. She thinks Julia was held back by her marriage to William, particularly because her wealth (which Lillian didn't have) could have enabled her to remain independent. 5) Lillian is attracted to Emily, an independent, accomplished woman who is as interested in making the most of the modern era as she is. All of this seems pretty clear cut to me. It also provides the source for Lillian's radicalism, whether you like Lillian for it or you don't. IIRC, one of the things that irritated people about Lillian's character is it seemed like the writers were playing up some stereotype about man-hating lesbians, and they would be playing into an even older stereotype if they made Lillian into the protagonist of some psycho-lesbian murder story. So if there is someone up to no good and not what she seems, I hope the writers go for the real surprise - which would be Emily! Perhaps she's been stringing the bodies behind her since childhood! Believe it or not snacky I agree with you in all this!! What I don't like about Lillian is not that she seems to be a man hater, I'm not sure she is, she's a marriage hater. It's the way she dismisses ANYONE that doesn't agree with her views and actions. As far as she's concerned no one else's opinion matters. I also don't like the way she talks to Julia who deserves some respect given what she's accomplished in a time that was even less progressive than 1902. |
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Post by snacky on May 30, 2015 18:33:45 GMT
Believe it or not snacky I agree with you in all this!! What I don't like about Lillian is not that she seems to be a man hater, I'm not sure she is, she's a marriage hater. It's the way she dismisses ANYONE that doesn't agree with her views and actions. As far as she's concerned no one else's opinion matters. I also don't like the way she talks to Julia who deserves some respect given what she's accomplished in a time that was even less progressive than 1902. LOL - believe it or not, I understand why Lillian is rubbing people the wrong way. She is issuing putdowns of people and acting in offensive ways. My sole defense of her is I believe it's a historically accurate radical character type for the era, and I do believe Emily might be attracted to that. And I also think it was a good way to finally differentiate Emily from Julia (by making her attracted to "danger"). |
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Post by Hodge on May 30, 2015 20:36:14 GMT
My sole defense of her is I believe it's a historically accurate radical character type for the era, and I do believe Emily might be attracted to that. And I also think it was a good way to finally differentiate Emily from Julia (by making her attracted to "danger"). That's not a defense, it's an excuse!  |
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Post by tanhere on May 30, 2015 20:40:07 GMT
I think its pretty clear that Lillian is up to no good and isn't who she seems. I worry for Emily's character for that reason. This is a curious impression. Why do you think this? Who Lillian has represented herself to be: 1) From a good family (and still connected since she made good connections for Julia and Margaret Haile). 2) Cast out of her family because she refused a marriage. (In hindsight, there might have been a sapphist scandal of some sort as well...). 3) Lillian had been studying to be an engineer. After her family cut her off, she went to work. One of her jobs was as a model for Heloise. Her bad experience with Heloise as well as the shock of sudden poverty fueled Lillian's political views. 4) Lillian believes strongly in woman's independence: this includes dress reform, suffrage, and and working. She thinks Julia was held back by her marriage to William, particularly because her wealth (which Lillian didn't have) could have enabled her to remain independent. 5) Lillian is attracted to Emily, an independent, accomplished woman who is as interested in making the most of the modern era as she is. All of this seems pretty clear cut to me. It also provides the source for Lillian's radicalism, whether you like Lillian for it or you don't. IIRC, one of the things that irritated people about Lillian's character is it seemed like the writers were playing up some stereotype about man-hating lesbians, and they would be playing into an even older stereotype if they made Lillian into the protagonist of some psycho-lesbian murder story. So if there is someone up to no good and not what she seems, I hope the writers go for the real surprise - which would be Emily! Perhaps she's been stringing the bodies behind her since childhood! You are right, Lillian is all those things. She is smart, accomplished, and passionate for women's rights. However, I feel she is very 'in your face' about it which at times comes off as rude and arrogant. I also feel she is borderline extremist. I'm not so sure she would hesitate to use some violence to get her point across and proceed to say that it was justified. Her character has grown on me....I like her at times, and others not so much. I feel she would throw Emily under the bus in order to advance herself or to get her own way. Again, just my perception but I just have a 'feeling'.  |
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