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Post by snacky on Feb 21, 2015 5:43:09 GMT
At the start of the season there was great support (on this forum, at least) for Emily to get her latent sapphist freak on. However, once we met Emily's dangerous liaison, Lillian, there was considerably less enthusiasm. I've already posted a thread where people can post their problems with Lillian and how she is going to take Emily to Hell in a handbasket. I'm still on Team Lillian, though. So this thread is devoted to justifying her actions, vindicating her character, and generally arguing for Emily/Lillian ("Emillian") as a good thing for both Emily and Lillian. I be the only one posting in this thread.*waves pirate flag of dissent*  My vindication of Lillian: Lillian had a life of privilege that enabled her to study for a career in engineering - she would have been a pioneer among women as well as being able to support herself independently. Being able to support herself without the patronage of a man would have been pretty important to a sapphist. Moreover, at that time, the hottest intellectual philosophy among young women, written by a woman who had stubbornly gotten a divorce and was supporting herself by writing and lecturing was Gilman's "Women and Econonomics". This philosophy applied Darwinian theory and eugenics to women, explaining that marriage not only enslaved women in the moment, but had deformed their Darwinian evolution over time, enfeebling their whole gender compared to men. When Lillian lost her chance to become an engineer, she rapidly experienced how the "other half lived". She not only experienced injustice, she had insight into privilege and the education to make articulate comparisons. Thus she became politicized about the unfairness that would enslave her to a man no matter what: either to keep ties with her family or to avoid starvation on the streets or the exploitation of employers who knew she couldn't get anything better. The thing to keep in mind is Lillian's politics is all about being forced into dependence on men to survive. People who are young and/or poor tend toward the more socialist and more radical end of the political spectrum. I won't argue that here. I will just say that I understand and personally sympathize with it. I live in one of the hotspots of protest movements which often sees arguments about "tactics" during protests, how to make people listen, whether "anarchists" are ruining it, whether there are "infiltrators", whether we need to behave to make friends with our neighbors, whether the impulse to behave is itself a part of the slavery... these things are all argued to infinity and beyond. When I read about the different strands of the suffrage movement, I now see it in that perspective - different groups arguing over tactics, and all of these tactics having pros and cons. If Lillian has chosen to be radical, I do not see her as "too radical". The chief objection to Lillian is she has been rude to Julia over her marriage to William. I won't deny she has been rude. But Emily has come across to me as rude in the past, too. Inspector B has said downright sexist things. We let these things slip by because these are character flaws, and we understand where they are coming from. Lillian's rudeness also showed a character flaw. What is the source? As I mentioned above, the hottest philosophy - one that got Gilman invited to Women's emancipation conferences all over the world - was the idea that women's Darwinian evolution had somehow been bent by marriage. Women had the potential to be equal to men, but marriage had been cheating them. When Lillian had independent means, she could have been one of the women to get back on track, to strive after women's true potential again - to show the world that women could be engineers, too. But she was denied that chance. Julia, on the other hand, did have that chance. She got her education in medicine. She established her professional practice. She had her personal fortune. Julia had the means to live independently and show what women could achieve. But instead she chose to subordinate herself to a mere middle class police detective. At first glance, this was the story of an incredible setback! From the perspective of the Twenty-first century we can all grumble that Lillian had no right to be a busybody and judge Julia's life, but we live in a time and place of near equality for women. At the turn of the twentieth century there were very few women who were positioned to be the role model Julia could have been. So every time she sold out - by getting married, by stepping down from political candidacy, by closing her contraceptive practice - she was throwing away an opportunity to lift up all women. Whether she actually had such a "duty" or not is a moot point - that's what Lillian saw, and what she was reacting to. I've been surprised that Lillian has been allowed to get away with such rudeness in an era where the previous generation followed rigidly prescribed hierarchies of "sir" and "madame". She is certainly skating close to the edge, and I think Emily is fascinated by that among other things. What else is Emily fascinated by? 1) Lillian's fortitude in carrying on, against so much adversity. 2) Lillian's commitment to her cause and passion for justice. 3) Lillian's intelligence and willingness to speak her mind (vs. Victorian prancing around the issues). 4) Lillian's interest in new and exciting things - she's a thrill-seeker like Emily. 5) Engineering - Lillian has a geeky background, hmm...?  |
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Post by Miss Emily Grace on Mar 10, 2015 22:44:53 GMT
You took all the words from my mouth I am a big Emily & Lillian shipper so thank you for finally explanning to those who hate her I love that Lillian has that attitude but with Emily she is an angel so they fit well togheter they are super suuuuuuper cuuuuuuute!!! I call them Emillian!!!  |
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Post by snacky on Mar 11, 2015 2:01:37 GMT
You took all the words from my mouth I am a big Emily & Lillian shipper so thank you for finally explanning to those who hate her I love that Lillian has that attitude but with Emily she is an angel so they fit well togheter they are super suuuuuuper cuuuuuuute!!! I call them Emillian!!! Are you from the US? People from the US might be able to deal with "rudeness" easier than Canadians. Then again Fallenbelle is from Texas, and she does not see Lillian's attitude as sass... |
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Post by Miss Emily Grace on Mar 15, 2015 13:13:13 GMT
Nope not even iʻm canadian and iʻm one of the ppl who forgives her attitude
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Post by Hodge on Mar 15, 2015 15:31:57 GMT
Nope not even iʻm canadian and iʻm one of the ppl who forgives her attitude There is never an excuse for rudeness!  |
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Post by snacky on Mar 15, 2015 17:11:40 GMT
I was watching Loch Ness Murdoch last night, and I'm still amazed people were so forgiving of how rude Emily was to George. Remember how she just dumped his snowball gift in the sink? And later she invited him to leave and stole his snowball? This is one of the reasons I could never see "Gemily". But it also made it hard for me to get into Emily as a character because when she was with George she seemed rather mean-spirited. I'm still not exactly in to Emily as a character: mainly it's going to take a while for other interesting character traits to make up for these earlier incidents. But I guess part of the reason I don't have a problem with Emily/Lillian is that I didn't see Emily as a particularly nice person in the first place. Therefore, the two inconsiderate young ladies seem to go together fine!  Looking forward to seeing what the writers do with this! |
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Post by snacky on Mar 24, 2015 5:36:59 GMT
Tonight DeskSgtHodge stated she would prefer Gemily of Emillian. Since I regard her as a broad-minded individual, I think she would actually be on the "left" of general fan sentiment regarding Emillian vs. Gemily. Thus, I think if MM beancounters and polltakers have been trying to take the temperature of fan sentiment, it looks like a return to Gemily is a foregone conclusion. George has lost his main squeeze, and if the consensus would be to see Emily with George rather than Lillian, I'm sure that's where the writers will take it.
I'd like to make a statement about the double-standard that has been applied toward Lillian and what a raw deal George would be getting here.
Reflect a while on Inspector Brackenreid. He insults women. He's homophobic - you could argue he helped drive a man to suicide in Til Death Do Us Part. He's made degrading comments about women to both Julia and Emily. During the first season especially he was quite short with William, who often tested his patience, and they were often at odds. Even this season, after years of building trust and friendship, the Inspector strongly advised William to "wear the pants" and get Julia out of the election: implying William was less than a man if he chose to do otherwise. He told Emily to stop playing games with Lillian. Throughout the series he has never hesitated to pull down the curtains and throw and beat a confession out of a suspect. Oh, and he's highly prejudiced against English street children.
Brackenreid is quite a rude character.
That said, have we ever opposed Margaret's love for the Inspector? Did we wish him off the series? Did we cheer for him to die at the end of Season 7?
No we did not. I submit we did not because we expect that behavior from a man, and we were willing to tolerate that behavior as part of the "historical color" - as long as Brackenreid ultimately proved to be a good man and on William's side when William needed him.
Lillian is disgusted that Julia, a woman who had a chance to be a role model as a single woman, got married like everyone else. For that we went her off the show, and it would be better for Emily to be with George.
Now let's look at Gemily.
Emily repeatedly showed contempt for George's intelligence. She scorned gifts he brought her. She made fun of him. She tricked him out of the snowball he brought her after throwing the first one in the sink.
On top of that, Emily showed she wasn't that physically attracted to George when her eye wandered to Leslie. George asked the right question when he asked whether Emily would have attempted to make things up to him if she hadn't found out about Leslie's evil deeds. She had treated George like second best.
All season I have been approving of George and Edna (even if I can't really think of George as the "romantic lead") because George becomes a man when he interacts with Edna's character. He was a "lowly constable" when he interacted with Emily's character. To change that now would be to change Emily's character in all the wrong ways - it would take the thrill-seeker and novelty-seeker out of her just when those were finally becoming something we could finally define her character by! Are we to go back to another "redo" of Emily just so George can have a girlfriend that won't make him look like a pathetic wuss?
As I understand the events of the night, I think a return to Gemily is pretty much in the cards. But I hope when that happens, people will consider how these developments reflect on the audience. Have we really come all that far as women if we can still be so unselfconscious about the double-standard we used to judge Brackenreid vs. Lillian or if we think a relationship where a woman treats a man with contempt is better than a relationship where a woman is carrying on with a "trouble-maker"?
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Post by Hodge on Mar 24, 2015 6:04:51 GMT
Tonight DeskSgtHodge stated she would prefer Gemily of Emillian. Since I regard her as a broad-minded individual, I think she would actually be on the "left" of general fan sentiment regarding Emillian vs. Gemily. Thus, I think if MM beancounters and polltakers have been trying to take the temperature of fan sentiment, it looks like a return to Gemily is a foregone conclusion. George has lost his main squeeze, and if the consensus would be to see Emily with George rather than Lillian, I'm sure that's where the writers will take it. I'd like to make a statement about the double-standard that has been applied toward Lillian and what a raw deal George would be getting here. Reflect a while on Inspector Brackenreid. He insults women. He's homophobic - you could argue he helped drive a man to suicide in Til Death Do Us Part. He's made degrading comments about women to both Julia and Emily. During the first season especially he was quite short with William, who often tested his patience, and they were often at odds. Even this season, after years of building trust and friendship, the Inspector strongly advised William to "wear the pants" and get Julia out of the election: implying William was less than a man if he chose to do otherwise. He told Emily to stop playing games with Lillian. Throughout the series he has never hesitated to pull down the curtains and throw and beat a confession out of a suspect. Oh, and he's highly prejudiced against English street children. Brackenreid is quite a rude character. Exactly what is the "left" of general fan sentiment regarding Emillian vs. Gemily? Do you mean you'd expect me to be for it? I would be for a sapphist relationship with almost anyone else. It's the object of that relationship that I don't care for. I didn't say I WANT George to go back to Emily, just that I'd rather see her with him than Lillian. I'd much rather see George with Edna but I just don't see it working out that way for a couple of reasons. Yes, Brackenreid has done all those things and yes, we all still like him. He IS typical of the times in many ways but underneath he does usually have everyone's best interests at heart, even if he goes about things the wrong way. He doesn't p*ss people off just for the sake of it. He does genuinely have high regard for William but it took him a while to get used to his ways. I also think he has a fairly high regard for Julia but can't get past his patriarchal viewpoint. He's very much a product of his times, are we to hold that against him? Lillian just p*sses people off. It has nothing to do with being okay for a man and not a woman. Lillian doesn't care about other people. As long as they're doing what she wants they're fine if they're not they're to be dismissed as irrelevant, PERIOD! I have to admit to not minding her the last couple of eps but she's hardly opened her mouth in them to put her foot in it. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 24, 2015 6:57:25 GMT
Exactly what is the "left" of general fan sentiment regarding Emillian vs. Gemily? Do you mean you'd expect me to be for it? I would be for a sapphist relationship with almost anyone else. It's the object of that relationship that I don't care for. I didn't say I WANT George to go back to Emily, just that I'd rather see her with him than Lillian. I'd much rather see George with Edna but I just don't see it working out that way for a couple of reasons. Yes, Brackenreid has done all those things and yes, we all still like him. He IS typical of the times in many ways but underneath he does usually have everyone's best interests at heart, even if he goes about things the wrong way. He doesn't p*ss people off just for the sake of it. He does genuinely have high regard for William but it took him a while to get used to his ways. I also think he has a fairly high regard for Julia but can't get past his patriarchal viewpoint. He's very much a product of his times, are we to hold that against him? Lillian just p*sses people off. It has nothing to do with being okay for a man and not a woman. Lillian doesn't care about other people. As long as they're doing what she wants they're fine if they're not they're to be dismissed as irrelevant, PERIOD! I have to admit to not minding her the last couple of eps but she's hardly opened her mouth in them to put her foot in it. Yes - by "left", I meant that you don't disapprove of sapphist relationships on principle, as some of the Facebook crowd do. But since you represent the "left", and you'd rather see Gemily than Emillian, then - even if you don't particularly like Emillian - an MM pollster splitting the difference would go with Gemily. Lillian is just as much a product of her times as Brackenreid is. Brackenreid is patriarchal, but people don't hold it against them because they understand that history. They are less aware of the history of feminism at that point where women were looking at the idea of marriage *critically* and trying to find a way to dig themselves out of that situation when there wasn't yet a lot of career alternatives open to women. Julia DID have an alternative - she could escape the "slavery" of marriage that was being critiqued not just as an economic problem, but as a Darwinian/eugenics problem for women at the time. Lillian is representing a view that is a product of the times. The evidence that Lillian doesn't "care" about people (which again is a bit of a double-standard when held against Brackenreid) is that she was rude to Julia (which has historical context) and the fact she didn't immediately confess after throwing a brick through a window during a protest. I would submit the latter behavior is not as violent and "uncaring" as Brackenreid directly beating up on people. Lillian does p*ss people off - I hardly represent the popular postion here, but I'm sticking to my position is that people are unfair to her character when they get p*ssed off at her. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 24, 2015 13:20:41 GMT
Lillian does p*ss people off - I hardly represent the popular postion here, but I'm sticking to my position is that people are unfair to her character when they get p*ssed off at her. I don't think people are being unfair to her. Everyone has had a gut reaction to her so either we were meant to (good writing or acting) or we've all got the wrong impression (bad writing or acting) either way she hasn't worked out. She's just not a sympathetic character. Brackenreid, for all his faults, is because we also see the charming, caring side of him as well as the bluster and patriarchy. |
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Post by lizmc on Mar 24, 2015 16:55:43 GMT
Exactly what is the "left" of general fan sentiment regarding Emillian vs. Gemily? Do you mean you'd expect me to be for it? I would be for a sapphist relationship with almost anyone else. It's the object of that relationship that I don't care for. I didn't say I WANT George to go back to Emily, just that I'd rather see her with him than Lillian. I'd much rather see George with Edna but I just don't see it working out that way for a couple of reasons. Yes, Brackenreid has done all those things and yes, we all still like him. He IS typical of the times in many ways but underneath he does usually have everyone's best interests at heart, even if he goes about things the wrong way. He doesn't p*ss people off just for the sake of it. He does genuinely have high regard for William but it took him a while to get used to his ways. I also think he has a fairly high regard for Julia but can't get past his patriarchal viewpoint. He's very much a product of his times, are we to hold that against him? Lillian just p*sses people off. It has nothing to do with being okay for a man and not a woman. Lillian doesn't care about other people. As long as they're doing what she wants they're fine if they're not they're to be dismissed as irrelevant, PERIOD! I have to admit to not minding her the last couple of eps but she's hardly opened her mouth in them to put her foot in it. Yes - by "left", I meant that you don't disapprove of sapphist relationships on principle, as some of the Facebook crowd do. But since you represent the "left", and you'd rather see Gemily than Emillian, then - even if you don't particularly like Emillian - an MM pollster splitting the difference would go with Gemily. Lillian is just as much a product of her times as Brackenreid is. Brackenreid is patriarchal, but people don't hold it against them because they understand that history. They are less aware of the history of feminism at that point where women were looking at the idea of marriage *critically* and trying to find a way to dig themselves out of that situation when there wasn't yet a lot of career alternatives open to women. Julia DID have an alternative - she could escape the "slavery" of marriage that was being critiqued not just as an economic problem, but as a Darwinian/eugenics problem for women at the time. Lillian is representing a view that is a product of the times. The evidence that Lillian doesn't "care" about people (which again is a bit of a double-standard when held against Brackenreid) is that she was rude to Julia (which has historical context) and the fact she didn't immediately confess after throwing a brick through a window during a protest. I would submit the latter behavior is not as violent and "uncaring" as Brackenreid directly beating up on people. Lillian does p*ss people off - I hardly represent the popular postion here, but I'm sticking to my position is that people are unfair to her character when they get p*ssed off at her. and we have seen him soften Lillian is not a product of her time......she is a spoilt, self centred brat with a chip on her shoulder and a brat is a brat no matter what era of history.......is she redeemable? Yes, I think she is and if the relationship with Emily continues, I think she will improve.....I think she has been written this way deliberately in order to show her learning to grow up, and partly to challenge viewers to think about why they don't like her and why they don't want to see Emily with her.....Brackenreid has been used to reflect the attitudes of the time and we have seen him soften his views over the years, partly because he doesn't succeed when he comes down heavily on Murdoch and others........
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Post by snacky on Mar 24, 2015 18:46:18 GMT
I'm still urging folks to check out Gilman's "Woman and Economics" (can be found online as a free ebook). Gilman was the "feminist"du jour of that exact time period. I haven't read any Emma Goldman, but I wonder if she was saying much the same thing about the need to emancipate women from the marriage system? Now that I think about it, I'm almost sure this was a fundamental tenet of Marx as well.
If Lillian is articulating and living a "hot topic" philosophy current to the period, how can she be a "brat"? It's only because she rubs against current sensibilities that we see that.
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Post by snacky on Mar 24, 2015 19:37:43 GMT
Brackenreid, for all his faults, is because we also see the charming, caring side of him as well as the bluster and patriarchy. I agree we see Brackenreid as a whole person. My question is - if we see Lillian do nice/caring things, will those get dismissed because of the negative first impression? Will Lillian be given a chance to be seen as a whole person? |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 24, 2015 20:47:08 GMT
Brackenreid, for all his faults, is because we also see the charming, caring side of him as well as the bluster and patriarchy. I agree we see Brackenreid as a whole person. My question is - if we see Lillian do nice/caring things, will those get dismissed because of the negative first impression? Will Lillian be given a chance to be seen as a whole person? Whether Lillian will be given a chance to be seen differently we'll only know after the next ep or beginning of the next season. Does she have a chance of redemption? Yes. Will she be redeemed? Only time will tell. I've changed my mind about characters in the past and the last couple of eps where she hasn't been able to put her foot in her mouth have calmed my nerves around her but it'll take quite a bit of taming that mouth to make me see her in a totally new light. Says me who's been spouting off on fb all day!  |
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Post by snacky on Mar 25, 2015 1:49:05 GMT
I agree we see Brackenreid as a whole person. My question is - if we see Lillian do nice/caring things, will those get dismissed because of the negative first impression? Will Lillian be given a chance to be seen as a whole person? Whether Lillian will be given a chance to be seen differently we'll only know after the next ep or beginning of the next season. Does she have a chance of redemption? Yes. Will she be redeemed? Only time will tell. I've changed my mind about characters in the past and the last couple of eps where she hasn't been able to put her foot in her mouth have calmed my nerves around her but it'll take quite a bit of taming that mouth to make me see her in a totally new light. Says me who's been spouting off on fb all day! Oooh, what have you been spouting off about? I've only revived the whole Lilliam issue because the idea that the storyline is driving George back to Emily is giving me the willies.  |
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