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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 24, 2014 8:26:20 GMT
This obviously wasn't a dream as a dream sequence immediately followed and whilst everyone, including hubby, sees this as a fantasy I've often wondered, was it really? Would William fantasize about Julia telling him to find someone else which is clearly the message in the scene. I guess you could argue that he was fantasizing about Julia giving him permission to have a relationship with Enid but I'm not so sure. Update! I found the key to the fantasy sequences, it's in the music and the music in this scene is very different. I think this may have actually happened!! It could be where William gets his memory of Julia in underwear in The Murdoch Identity. Or...maybe it was some Jungian psychic process (anima?) instead of a dream. Or maybe it was William's latent psychic powers actually communicating with Julia at a subconscious level... I do agree it was something different than a dream. Not sure it was a straight-up memory, though. Or was the scene a subconscious conversation explaining why she's keeping her distance from him-his brain is trying to make sense of her rebuffing his overtures for getting back together? I don't think it was a fantasy (because why would you fantasize about that), nor was it a memory (why would you have that conversation in bed-not conducive to sexytime). |
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Post by monty151 on Dec 24, 2014 14:31:15 GMT
I don't think it was a fantasy but a dream based on a memory ie he has seen Julia in bed in her underthings. The conversation part was his subconscious asking Julia things he can't say for real.
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 24, 2014 15:41:31 GMT
I don't think it was a fantasy but a dream based on a memory ie he has seen Julia in bed in her underthings. The conversation part was his subconscious asking Julia things he can't say for real. There's something else that's always bothered me about that scene, and I don't have access to my episodes right now to confirm, but doesn't she tell him that he wants things she can't provide, like a family? How does he know this? Does he already assume that the abortion left her sterile? She doesn't tell him until the last episode of season 3 that she can't have children, yet he's already imagining this in season two? And, he's surprised at her bombshell in the last episode of season 3? Am I remembering this correctly? |
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Post by Hodge on Dec 24, 2014 17:01:48 GMT
I don't think it was a fantasy but a dream based on a memory ie he has seen Julia in bed in her underthings. The conversation part was his subconscious asking Julia things he can't say for real. There's something else that's always bothered me about that scene, and I don't have access to my episodes right now to confirm, but doesn't she tell him that he wants things she can't provide, like a family? How does he know this? Does he already assume that the abortion left her sterile? She doesn't tell him until the last episode of season 3 that she can't have children, yet he's already imagining this in season two? And, he's surprised at her bombshell in the last episode of season 3? Am I remembering this correctly? She tells him they want different things. She can't have a family so she probably convinces herself she doesn't want one. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:20:40 GMT
I'm traveling right now, so I don't have access to eps right now to verify, but in my memory, season 3 Jilliam hints at a sexual relationship (or at least 3rd base). But once season 6 William tells her that they can only truly be together if they're married, it seems to hint that there's been no nookie between them, and gives credence to the virgin theory. Also, see sexually frustrated William in season 7-the boy was so horny he was about to grow horns. But if he had carnal knowledge of Julia prior to season 4, why does he not have relations with her in season 7? Season 6 is one thing-she was still married-and that was a line he wouldn't cross (although he danced on it by carrying on with a married woman in public) . Was it to show Julia that his intentions were honorable, and wouldn't "compromise" her? I agree reed that the carriage talk hints at annoyance, but explain his behavior in the brothel? To be honest, that's probably why Brax thought he was a virgin and that such a talk was even necessary. I forgot about the brothel, hmm. But once he sat down in front of the belly dancer, William seemed okay with that. Maybe there was so much third base that William felt "Fatherly Advice" to a 40ish year old man was unwarranted.  |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:25:27 GMT
I have to confess, though, I find the Song of Solomon totally tacky and sleazy, lol. Maybe it was more sexy in the 19th century before there was The Playboy Channel and more over porn. Also I don't particularly like the word "pleasure". Not because I'm so much like William that I've never had a good time. I just think that word had been so tainted by bad erotic pop culture (movies, magazines, fic, whatever) that it just evokes sleaze for me and not actual pleasure. I put the Song of Solomon in that category. William should have gone for some smexy post-Restoration poets, instead. Now that would have been unusual!  I don't know that I find the Song of Solomon sleazy, but I think its frank sexuality is startling to some folk-all the more so given it's in the Bible. I was going through my old Renaissance verse text from college a few weeks ago, and a lot of it was pretty frank and explicit as well-you just have to read it with a very pervy eye. So, I think a lot of romantic poetry is raunchier than we expect it to be. There is a lot of raunchy troubador songs, too! And the 17th century has Lord Rochester. What is odd is there isn't much in between: literature is either delicately allegorical or super crude. There is no such thing as "chick lit" with benefits. Perhaps my squick with the Song of Solomon comes from having seen way too much of it, since it was one of the historical cliches for making passes at women. One of the reasons I love history is it's always wonderful to discover the real people doing very familiar things beneath the gloss of the textbook version. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:27:28 GMT
And yet, in the show, they took pains to set Enid up as a more worthy love interest than just as a housekeeper, I think. Remember, she *made* a telescope for Alwyn, which showed she has intelligence and a willingness to learn about science. And in the next episode, 'Murdoch.com,' her first instinct to help her explain to them the workings of the telegraph system was... to draw on the blackboard. Just like William. That's a good point-the TV show does set her up to be a worthy love interest from an intellectual perspective, but never very much from a romantic perspective. I think he was surprised and kinda turned on that she built a telescope, but ultimately I don't think he cared for the way she mothered him. Although, he did sleep with book Enid, and I keep wondering if he did the same with TV Enid. That might explain some of her pushiness with him. I doubt he slept with the TV Enid if he didn't sleep with Julia. I think TV Enid was just desperate for a father for Alwyn and she didn't want to waste her time on a man who was still in love with another woman. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:30:07 GMT
Or...maybe it was some Jungian psychic process (anima?) instead of a dream. Or maybe it was William's latent psychic powers actually communicating with Julia at a subconscious level... I do agree it was something different than a dream. Not sure it was a straight-up memory, though. Or was the scene a subconscious conversation explaining why she's keeping her distance from him-his brain is trying to make sense of her rebuffing his overtures for getting back together? I don't think it was a fantasy (because why would you fantasize about that), nor was it a memory (why would you have that conversation in bed-not conducive to sexytime). Semi-hallucination: I like to pimp the idea William was hit on the head by a tree when he was a logger - thus activating the part of his brain that enhances his memories and enables him to visualize crime scenes so well. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:31:34 GMT
I don't think it was a fantasy but a dream based on a memory ie he has seen Julia in bed in her underthings. The conversation part was his subconscious asking Julia things he can't say for real. Maybe William used his periscope to peep. He's been known to be a hypocrite about the law~  |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 17:34:02 GMT
I don't think it was a fantasy but a dream based on a memory ie he has seen Julia in bed in her underthings. The conversation part was his subconscious asking Julia things he can't say for real. that she can't have children, yet he's already imagining this in season two? And, he's surprised at her bombshell in the last episode of season 3? Am I remembering this correctly? Yes you are remembering that correctly. I think he's being super-intuitive from the fact she gave up her baby to pursue her career. His subconscious is telling him the truth about the situation. |
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Post by Hodge on Dec 24, 2014 17:37:44 GMT
This obviously wasn't a dream as a dream sequence immediately followed and whilst everyone, including hubby, sees this as a fantasy I've often wondered, was it really? Would William fantasize about Julia telling him to find someone else which is clearly the message in the scene. I guess you could argue that he was fantasizing about Julia giving him permission to have a relationship with Enid but I'm not so sure. Update! I found the key to the fantasy sequences, it's in the music and the music in this scene is very different. I think this may have actually happened!! It could be where William gets his memory of Julia in underwear in The Murdoch Identity. Or...maybe it was some Jungian psychic process (anima?) instead of a dream. Or maybe it was William's latent psychic powers actually communicating with Julia at a subconscious level... I do agree it was something different than a dream. Not sure it was a straight-up memory, though. I don't think it's a memory. I'm beginning to think that this happened. I've always thought there was nothing in this scene to suggest that it was anything other than real. The music is different to fantasies which have their own theme music, in Tattered & Torn they're memories and the scenes have blurred edges, his visions of crimes are different and whilst his dream in Murdoch Air seems real the dream sequences in Convalescence are totally different again. The one thing I don't get is why would she be there with him and that's the only thing that makes me think it may not be real. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 18:28:33 GMT
Or...maybe it was some Jungian psychic process (anima?) instead of a dream. Or maybe it was William's latent psychic powers actually communicating with Julia at a subconscious level... I do agree it was something different than a dream. Not sure it was a straight-up memory, though. I don't think it's a memory. I'm beginning to think that this happened. I've always thought there was nothing in this scene to suggest that it was anything other than real. The music is different to fantasies which have their own theme music, in Tattered & Torn they're memories and the scenes have blurred edges, his visions of crimes are different and whilst his dream in Murdoch Air seems real the dream sequences in Convalescence are totally different again. The one thing I don't get is why would she be there with him and that's the only thing that makes me think it may not be real. They could be "bundling" - sleeping together without having sex. |
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Post by Hodge on Dec 24, 2014 20:28:58 GMT
I don't think it's a memory. I'm beginning to think that this happened. I've always thought there was nothing in this scene to suggest that it was anything other than real. The music is different to fantasies which have their own theme music, in Tattered & Torn they're memories and the scenes have blurred edges, his visions of crimes are different and whilst his dream in Murdoch Air seems real the dream sequences in Convalescence are totally different again. The one thing I don't get is why would she be there with him and that's the only thing that makes me think it may not be real. They could be "bundling" - sleeping together without having sex. Given his injuries I doubt he'd be able to perform very well.  |
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Post by snacky on Dec 24, 2014 20:34:53 GMT
They could be "bundling" - sleeping together without having sex. Given his injuries I doubt he'd be able to perform very well. I mean a memory of bundling! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 25, 2014 0:37:42 GMT
That's a good point-the TV show does set her up to be a worthy love interest from an intellectual perspective, but never very much from a romantic perspective. I think he was surprised and kinda turned on that she built a telescope, but ultimately I don't think he cared for the way she mothered him. Although, he did sleep with book Enid, and I keep wondering if he did the same with TV Enid. That might explain some of her pushiness with him. I doubt he slept with the TV Enid if he didn't sleep with Julia. I think TV Enid was just desperate for a father for Alwyn and she didn't want to waste her time on a man who was still in love with another woman. I don't think so either, but I guess I'll have to watch those episodes again. What a chore. |
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