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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 20:21:04 GMT
To Mrs. Brisby and Snacky: As a Canadian I thank you for your admiration And I am glad that MM has inspired you to learn more about us and our history. I do know other Americans like yourselves who have gone out of their way to learn about us and they are great friends and family. (My sister in
Law married a Texan of Mexican descent !) I hope the people who make MM read this forum!
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Post by lovemondays on Apr 7, 2014 20:31:16 GMT
Thank you for those kind thoughts mrsbrisby. On that terrible day we were two nations united in horror, grief and need. The people who were thrown together in Gander developed strong friendships, many will be life-long.
I'm sorry this discussion is disheartening for you. I find it very hopeful. The education systems in both our countries need a serious overhaul but learning doesn't stop when school is finished. We learn about each other every time we cross the border. Through sharing vacation stories with friends and family. All it takes is shifting the focus from the 'what we did' to 'who we met'. It becomes a ripple. The internet is a wonderful tool for learning about the wider world. The easiest way is to hook up with international news feeds like the BBC. It allows you to hear world news from a different perspective. I love the accents too!
I'm curious to know what you and snacky are learning about Canada and Canadians from watching MM.
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Post by snacky on Apr 8, 2014 1:19:13 GMT
You were up pretty late last night Snacky! As eus said, we are so exposed to American culture in media and history that we can't help learning about you. I think MM does a wonderful job portraying the overall value system that is "Canadian". Like Murdoch, we care deeply about the truth and doing the right thing even when it's difficult. MM has done a good job with historical figures too. I'm on the West coast, hehe.  Since so many scripted shows are now produced in Canada, perhaps MM is on the leading edge of a wave of Canadian "media exposure", where people can't help but learn something about Canada. I'm really glad the impression I get from MM does reflect the values Canadians want to have. Another thing MM did is put Canada in a general historical context for me, which makes it easier for me to think about Canada as a particular place instead of some abstract idea. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 8, 2014 1:26:23 GMT
Most Americans do not know that Spain once laid claim to almost 2/3 of what is now the US. After the Louisiana Purchase (1803) that was reduced to about one third. New Spain and later Mexico controlled what is now Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, California and Oregon, until the mid 19th century, and in some cases much longer. The point is, these lands were under the control of Spain or Mexico for over 200 years and the people in those territories spoke Spanish. These facts have been conveniently removed from the national consciousness for undoubtedly political reasons. I second that - I knew very little about the history of the American West even though I've lived on the West coast for a number of years. Strangely, MM made me more interested in that aspect of American history: first I became more interested in the Victorian heritage all around, and then I started watching some older "steampunk" TV shows set in the West. Finally, I got around to reading some books. I have to say, it gave me a whole new perspective on how English was imposed as the "national" language. Also, some of this territorial consolidation is only around 100 years old: the slogan "the border crossed us" makes a lot more sense now, too. |
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Post by mrsbrisby on Apr 9, 2014 1:22:20 GMT
Usually, if something in an episode interests me, I google it and go from there. The Canadain Gold Rush, the trans-Canada railroad, the history and development of Toronto, that kind of thing. I would love for someone to recommend a good book on Canadian History, a college level text would be great.
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Post by snacky on Apr 9, 2014 1:38:52 GMT
I would love for someone to recommend a good book on Canadian History, a college level text would be great. Me, too! Me, too! I'm especially interested in the "British Empire" aspects. I had never really thought of Canada as part of Europe until I saw MM. I knew people spoke French in Quebec, but I sort of registered that as a tourist attraction: as if people spoke mainly French in New Orleans (this would say nothing about the rest of the U.S.). I'm especially interested in cultural/art history. |
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Post by lovemondays on Apr 12, 2014 14:40:40 GMT
One of the problems is there isn't one particularly good textbook. In general, Canadian history has been not been well written about in a comprehensive way. I would start with Tommy Douglas who was premier of Saskatchewan in the 1930's. The rise of the New Democratic Party changed the face of Canadian politics. He is also the father of our medicare system. Several years ago he was voted "the Greatest Canadian" in a national poll. Working from there will lead you to the influences of British Imperialism and how we evolved as a nation within the Commonwealth. Quebec is a whole other kettle of fish. FYI, all Canadians study French for several years, but that doesn't mean we can all speak it. You must be bilingual if you want to work in Ottawa and bilingual signage is the norm in most provinces.
In terms of art history, the Group of Seven is our most prominent and influential force in the art world. There is also a great deal of significant Aboriginal work. Perusing the websites for the McMichael Art Gallery and the Museum of Civilization aka the Museum of Canadian History can also lead you in some interesting directions.
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Post by snacky on Apr 12, 2014 19:01:04 GMT
The rise of the New Democratic Party changed the face of Canadian politics. He is also the father of our medicare system. Several years ago he was voted "the Greatest Canadian" in a national poll. You must be bilingual if you want to work in Ottawa and bilingual signage is the norm in most provinces. In terms of art history, the Group of Seven is our most prominent and influential force in the art world. There is also a great deal of significant Aboriginal work. It sounds like Canada's "New Deal" was similar to the US one, but your oligarchs didn't slip a movie star into political power to take it all apart. Regarding the bilingual law - I suspect that makes your students smarter than most American students right off the bat. Thinking in different languages makes the mind more flexible, and I think it actually generates more neurons when you're older. I wonder if your rate of Alzheimer's is lower. I've never heard of the Group of Seven - I look forward to checking them out!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 18:46:04 GMT
Usually, if something in an episode interests me, I google it and go from there. The Canadain Gold Rush, the trans-Canada railroad, the history and development of Toronto, that kind of thing. I would love for someone to recommend a good book on Canadian History, a college level text would be great. You could also check out the books of Pierre Berton. He wrote about the building of the railway in The Last Spike, arguably one of his most famous books. Right now I am reading one of his lesser known books, but it is still very entertaining and informative. It is called The Wild Frontier:Tales From the Remarkable Past. It is the second in a series apparently, the first is called My Country:Tales From the Remarkable Past. I will have to find that. The book features several true stories about interesting characters that I have never heard of , stuff that should be taught in history class but never is. There is a great account of a Northwest Mounted Policeman named Sam Steele whose activities reinforced the motto that the Mounties Always Get Their Man, although that phrase wasn't t used until later. In this story Berton made the important observation that the law officers of that time acted knowing that the power of the English empire was behind them. This is also part of the subtext in MM, maybe not so subtly with Brackenreid! The story covers the period between 1874 and his death in 1918. Steele played a large part in keeping the Yukon peaceful during the Klondike gold rush. As as for more current Canadian history I will have to get back to you on that one. |
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Post by pharmom on May 11, 2014 23:53:32 GMT
You were up pretty late last night Snacky! I think your point about the reality that Americans are not taught anything about Canada is something that we, as Canadians, are very aware of. And I think it's a sore point...why the heck not learn anything about your neighbour, your trading partner and the people with whom you share the longest border in the world? As eus said, we are so exposed to American culture in media and history that we can't help learning about you. I don't know for sure, but I expect that students in the UK learn about Canada as part of their study of the British Commonwealth. We are still far more British than American in all things but that is shifting. I think MM does a wonderful job portraying the overall value system that is "Canadian". Like Murdoch, we care deeply about the truth and doing the right thing even when it's difficult. Crabtree's character highlights our willingness to laugh at ourselves and to be open to the interesting knowledge that other cultures can bring us. (Kung Fu Crabtree was an excellent example of this, both with the food and the action!) MM has done a good job with historical figures too. Prince Albert's shenanigans, Winston Churchill's pompousness and exploits in India, and Emma Goldman's stance on workers rights to name a few. Adding in the civilization-changing inventors like Tessla, Bell, Edison and Ford give us a chance to explore the struggles involved in adapting to electricity, phones and automobiles. I think the struggles would have been identical on both sides of the border. I have to say though, my favourites are James Pendrick's airplane and car. I think MM has a very balanced Canadian perspective. The characters are incredibly likeable, well developed and consistent. The show also gives a nod to our forward thinking...female doctors who are very capable and respected, yet each struggled to be accepted into medical school. We also need the odd slap upside the head such as the subway. Toronto is still way behind on that one 112 years later! P.S. Just between you and me Snacky, if Dubya ever got elected here, I would be moving to the Bahamas! I had to giggle about about Canadians learning about us through media... that's the last place from which I would want anyone learning the true United States! There are many of us who live in the US who do not claim allegiance to the USofA attributed to GWB. Nor do we support the NRA for that matter. Those are generalizations that simply do not hold when thinking about the US. We are a country of extremes and middles. Those of us in the middle must, I think, feel a bit like Canada. No one remembers us and no one listens to us!  We learned about Canada in school but that was because it was local history. Folks where I live now don't learn much about Canada I assume because they have usually been the little brother to the big players - part of the British Empire, part of the Commonwealth etc. Is it sad? Yes, it is! I'm proud of my heritage as a 3rd generation European immigrant American but I am very aware of the troubles my country faces. It would be great if there were a way to put more cultural history about our nearest neighbors into the curriculum. My kids' classrooms hear about it because I tell them!  As far as the differences (I say differences not deficiencies ... of either country) we were made differently from the very beginning. The national identity of the US was forged much earlier in our history and it was based in armed revolt for the separation from another country. From Colonial times, the US was in the face of the Europeans, trying to be different, trying to be separate. Canada's national awareness and identity is much younger and of a completely different quality. The US form of government breeds polarization, where as the British/Canadian parliamentary form necessitates cooperation on at least some level. In other words, Our differences are in our genes and are our strength and weakness. I love MM for the wry humor, the gentleness of the characters (which I think is part "Canadian" and part the turn-of-the-centruy time frame), and the way the show portrays issues with the US. It would be easy to bash the US and make characters like Clegg into villains of an extreme kind. MM doesn't do that (and in fact in Clegg's instance, they actively point out that Canada has their own agents who stop at nothing) and I appreciate that. For comparison, look at Spooks/MI-5. I absolutely love the show but the characterizations of Americans are a bit over-the-top. Show the warts, by-all-means, but sometimes they went past showing what was there to being blatantly anti-American. I admit to enjoying both countries for what they are and wanting to smack both for what they aren't. I wish I could find the best of both countries somewhere and I would move there in a minute! That being said, I live in the US (Maryland) and travel to Canada every year (13 hours by the time I get where I'm going). I love having the ability to experience both as much as I do. |
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Post by snacky on May 12, 2014 1:55:21 GMT
The US form of government breeds polarization, where as the British/Canadian parliamentary form necessitates cooperation on at least some level. In other words, Our differences are in our genes and are our strength and weakness. As I understand it, this difference is also in our legal systems. While the adversarial system the US uses came from Britain, their procedures (and presumably Canada's?) are closer to the inquisitorial or investigatory system used in Europe. The inquisitorial system is said to be more susceptible to corruption whereas in the adversarial system you are screwed if you have the worse (or no) lawyer. In non-adversarial systems the lawyers on all sides are supposed to be working toward the truth, whereas in the US the lawyers on the other side will do any dirty trick they can get away with to win. I would be willing to bet the US has more courtroom drama, and Europe has more police drama. Though I live in the U.S., I don't know which system gets closer to justice or closer to mercy. |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 1, 2014 23:02:52 GMT
I believe both systems pursue justice equally. The difference is in the method. Canada's legal system was set up while we were still a part of the British Empire. Yes there have been modifications since Confederation. A key change was the unification of the roles of a barrister (one who presents a case in court) and a solicitor (who did all the investigation and initial representation). We just have 'lawyers' now. Some appear in court while others can arrange to never appear before a judge. It is now a matter of choice rather than role distinction. I know for certain that the customs of court dress and address are still very close. We have given up the god-awful wigs but retain the robes and ties. The robes, by the way, make an FANTASTIC witch costume . |
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Post by snacky on Jun 1, 2014 23:12:22 GMT
I believe both systems pursue justice equally. The difference is in the method. Canada's legal system was set up while we were still a part of the British Empire. Yes there have been modifications since Confederation. A key change was the unification of the roles of a barrister (one who presents a case in court) and a solicitor (who did all the investigation and initial representation). We just have 'lawyers' now. Some appear in court while others can arrange to never appear before a judge. It is now a matter of choice rather than role distinction. I know for certain that the customs of court dress and address are still very close. We have given up the god-awful wigs but retain the robes and ties. The robes, by the way, make an FANTASTIC witch costume . I know almost nothing about this topic (I know, jaws have dropped), but a friend of mine once complained about the American adversarial system, saying that our lawyers just try to out-lie each other while in the British system (which I thought was like the Canadian system, but if you have "lawyers", I'm not so sure) everyone is trying to get to the truth. In Canada, is there a sense that the "truth" comes out in court, or is it the stage for scum lawyers to lie and trick each other, and where hapless people, unfamiliar with the complicated legal system, get shafted? |
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Post by lovemondays on Jun 1, 2014 23:41:29 GMT
Lawyers in Canada generally are considerably more honourable than that. Sure, the goal is to "win" in court, but I believe there is considerably less truth-stroking. Remember too that most lawyer type shows fall into the criminal court variety and only a few like "The Good Wife", "Ally McBeal", "Boston Legal" and "L.A. Law" got into any civil and/or litigation law. There are so many other branches of law that don't even get a mention in prime time.
Did you know that until just a few years ago, lawyers in Canada were NOT ALLOWED to advertise on radio or TV? It was considered too much like, forgive me, American-style ambulance chasing.
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Post by snacky on Jun 2, 2014 0:07:21 GMT
Did you know that until just a few years ago, lawyers in Canada were NOT ALLOWED to advertise on radio or TV? It was considered too much like, forgive me, American-style ambulance chasing. That is awesome! Please tell me you can't advertise pharmaceutical drugs on TV either. I don't think it's any accident that the professions in America that are outrageously paid are the same ones that are advertised and PLAYED on television. |
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