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Post by snacky on Jul 28, 2014 21:14:25 GMT
With all of the cultural garbage about sex it is no wonder that WM, or anybody else in the nineteenth century for that matter, was confused about sex. In the nineteenth century, most brides and many grooms were virgins when they married. A bride was expected to be perfectly innocent of anything sexual yet somehow the groom was expected to know what to do. Nevertheless, she was supposed to be a willing participant in sexual relations with her husband whether he knew what he was doing or not. The idea of her enjoying sex was anathema to most "moral" people.
The woman's pleasure during sex was not considered as part of the equation. By definition, a man was satisfied, at least to agree, by the fact that he experienced climax. It was an enlightened man, indeed, who considered his wife's satisfaction and who was willing to accommodate her.
The flip side of this viewpoint was that a woman who found and even sought sexual pleasure was somehow or other immoral or depraved. After all, a woman in the throws of passion sexually excited men therefore it had to be in some way or other connected to the devil. Nevertheless, a man was not held responsible if the gave into the urges he felt, but the woman was.
And here the mind bending circular argument for the justification for men's enjoyment of sex and the woman's acceptance, but not enjoyment of sex, begins.
The line between "proper" sexual relations between a husband and wife and those that were "immoral" was very thin indeed, and anything that was remotely enjoyable was "improper." read evil, sinful. There was no gray area at all, so the "acceptable" range of sexual experience was equally narrow. What we think of as having great sex and lots of fun within the confines of marriage would have dumbfounded most Victorians, but by no means all of them. Nevertheless, even today there are men who believe their wives are some sort of "sacred" vessel and their lovemaking is not at all adventurous.
What does this have to do with William Murdoch and the dirty pictures? Well, he is a man of his time and (I believe) a virgin. He knew that intercourse existed and even knew how it was supposed to be done, but he believed it was meant for the procreation of children. Anything that departed from that essential role of sex was wrong and lead to degradation.
Enjoying the experience as a way to strengthen a relationship was an idea he had never thought of, but I am betting he will soon discover the wonders that await him and Julia. Furthermore, I suspect his theoretical "knowledge" of things sexual is far more extensive than practical. Thank you for putting that all down in one post: a lot of these thoughts go into my assumptions when writing a comment (coming form some book I've read on Victorian morals or gender studies or whatnot), but I've never put it all in one post, and I don't think anyone else has either. Thank you for that! Riffing on what you have said, I think one way William is "modern", is he does consider Julia as a full human being and he wants her to be happy in every way. He brooded in The Kissing Bandit over being able to "arouse her passions". But perhaps some Catholic guilt about "dark places" will still accompany such arousal...? I see also that you are on team "Virgin". It's good to have the argument spelled out for that! The argument from history is certainly strong even if the TV/canon evidence is ambiguous! I will say that if William is a virgin, he almost waited too long. Even if Julia could fix her side of the infertility equation, isn't William on the edge of past his prime for fatherhood? |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jul 28, 2014 21:28:53 GMT
Interesting point. William has demonstrated a bit of contradiction about the dark places of men. In "The Green Muse" William is distinctly uncomfortable discussing sex play involving whips with Julia, yet in another episode he fantasizes about Julia in a dominatrix role. Hmmm. A very proper man indeed.
What does this have to do with William Murdoch and the dirty pictures? Well, he is a man of his time and (I believe) a virgin. He knew that intercourse existed and even knew how it was supposed to be done, but he believed it was meant for the procreation of children. Anything that departed from that essential role of sex was wrong and lead to degradation.
Enjoying the experience as a way to strengthen a relationship was an idea he had never thought of, but I am betting he will soon discover the wonders that await him and Julia. Furthermore, I suspect his theoretical "knowledge" of things sexual is far more extensive than practical.
If you read all this blather, thanks.
I think the issue as to whether he has or hasn't is murky. I don't think the William we've seen would be experienced, but I strongly suspect that a past William got up to a lot in his logging camp days. Which is why snacky needs to hurry up and write that fic. However, there is evidence to support that they have not had sex with each other. That I can buy-which is why their honeymoon will be thermonuclear. While I agree that sex as procreation was a tenet of the RCC, I'm not sure that William buys into this belief 100%. Maybe at one time he did, but I suspect he's had difficulty adhering to it-if he believed that, he wouldn't be rolling around on the grass with either Liza or Julia. Most Catholics I've known haven't always followed the rules so to speak, which is why they confess. While times have changed, I doubt that people have all that much. |
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Post by snacky on Jul 28, 2014 21:36:28 GMT
Which is why snacky needs to hurry up and write that fic. tokyobelle is my moriarity. *shakes fist at tokyobelle*
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jul 28, 2014 21:41:56 GMT
Interesting point. William has demonstrated a bit of contradiction about the dark places of men. In "The Green Muse" William is distinctly uncomfortable discussing sex play involving whips with Julia, yet in another episode he fantasizes about Julia in a dominatrix role. Hmmm. A very proper man indeed. Furthermore, I suspect his theoretical "knowledge" of things sexual is far more extensive than practical.
If you read all this blather, thanks.
Oh, totally agreed. I'm just waiting for Julia to discover his books on sex. He may not be doing it, but he's been reading about it.  |
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Post by snacky on Jul 28, 2014 23:06:13 GMT
My first attempt to reply via kindle (e-ink type!). Had to rofl at the sex book, and once more mourn the lack of a dedicated fanfic archive...because that idea alone could launch a thousand hilarious fics...-fans self-
Like what if William got stuck trying to reach for it in its behind-cupboard hiding place...XD
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Post by mrsbrisby on Jul 29, 2014 5:04:46 GMT
I hope the writers address this burning issue in Season 8, otherwise this could go on forever. lol
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jul 29, 2014 6:37:27 GMT
I hope the writers address this burning issue in Season 8, otherwise this could go on forever. lol Can we contact the writers and ask for that? We're dying to know! |
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Post by snacky on Jul 29, 2014 7:19:23 GMT
hahahaha, the writers aren't going to address this issue. It's much more fun for them to leave it hanging. Besides if they settled the matter one way or another, that would be the same as favoring one group of fans over another, and that would cause no end of grumbling and bitterness. Just look what happened when CC just posted my pic that represented - only in one small piece of the pic - Emily as a sapphist. George/Emily purists ranted and raged. Peopled defriended CC's Tumblr. And this wasn't even happening on the TV show: this was just a picture someone posted that someone else made! WTF! The troublemaking pic:  Anyway, I'm pretty sure the writers are never going to say a word about William's pre-marital status. We will be lucky if we get any detailed shots of the honeymoon night other than Julia pulling William through the door by the tie William carrying Julia over the threshold. The writers want the fans each to have it our own way.  |
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Post by snacky on Jul 29, 2014 7:20:59 GMT
I hope the writers address this burning issue in Season 8, otherwise this could go on forever. lol Can we contact the writers and ask for that? We're dying to know! I bet each writer has their own separate opinion, lol.  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jul 29, 2014 14:14:08 GMT
Can we contact the writers and ask for that? We're dying to know! I bet each writer has their own separate opinion, lol. I agree we'll never know, unless they announce he's a virgin for comic effect or honeymoon performance anxiety angst. And truthfully, that's probably why we have conflicting evidence-different writers have different views on the topic. |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Jul 29, 2014 14:33:14 GMT
And then some different writers came on board in the later seasons so that added to the mess as well.
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Post by snacky on Jul 29, 2014 16:06:40 GMT
I bet each writer has their own separate opinion, lol. I agree we'll never know, unless they announce he's a virgin for comic effect or honeymoon performance anxiety angst. And truthfully, that's probably why we have conflicting evidence-different writers have different views on the topic. I bet the writers take us rigggggggggght up to the edge on that. For instance, William could ask Julia something along the lines of what she likes. That leaves the question open as to whether he's asking because he needs to be educated on the topic or because he's such a Don Juan he's out to maximize her pleasure. |
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Post by snacky on Jul 29, 2014 16:08:36 GMT
btw, CC, that Let Loose the Dogs cleavage-perusal moment might be considered an instance of "inappropriate looking".
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Post by snacky on Jul 29, 2014 16:11:54 GMT
I caught a couple of raunchy references in Journey to the Center of Toronto (7x11), and who could miss the Freudian aspect of William's blackboard drawing (it's even in my 40 Year Old Virgin thingamabob), but it seems I didn't even catch the half of it. I definitely have to watch that episode again! From CosmicCalvalcade's Tumblr (discussion with PeachesandLube Tumblr: Ooh did CC catch Julia trying to take her own peek here? CosmicCalvalcade: holy-lakemonster-batman.tumblr.comCC also did a series where Julia catches William at his "inappropriate looking" - lol! The rest of this series can be found on CC's tumblr if you CLICK HERE. Had to add to this there is also a discussion of "penetrating" bank floors, lol. |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Jul 29, 2014 16:19:50 GMT
With that much innuendo I assume one of the writers was feeling rather frisky when they wrote it, not unlike Murdoch himself. It may have even been subconsciously done. Or they were just having fun. |
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