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Post by snacky on Mar 18, 2015 8:17:49 GMT
wondering if Julia was forced to give up her job at the mental hospital (as married women were often forced to do in those days), because we NEVER saw her at her office or being called on to give criminal profiling advice to William. That aspect of her character was utterly discarded. Yes this was the weirdest thing - Julia's role a "profiler" completely evaporated. It was bad enough that she wasn't in the lab anymore - now she wasn't even giving William his "talk therapy"! What would William do if he saw a butterfly!  |
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Post by snacky on Mar 18, 2015 8:21:45 GMT
I'm wondering if William would have better luck getting promoted in some other part of Canada, perhaps Montreal, Winnipeg, or Vancouver? That might be an interesting conclusion for the show. That would certainly be a circular conclusion to the show since in The Great Wall Chief Inspector Stockton already tried to "promote" William to Winnipeg! William is not a peripatetic man. He will never leave Toronto. And since he only invests money by saving it at the Postal Bank, he will never have the funds to leave Toronto.   |
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Post by snacky on Mar 18, 2015 8:24:10 GMT
I can foresee Lillian as a tragic character who gets Emily into a boatload of trouble. If handled very smartly, this could be both brilliant and heartbreaking. I imagine some scenario in or near the season finale where I say "well, she's not wrong, but that's really not helping." Yep, I can see that, too. At the start of the season I was pretty sure they were going to kill Lillian off in a hunger strike so they could do that story without touching any of the main characters. But it would be all sad and touching since it was Emily's main squeeze.  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 18, 2015 9:51:36 GMT
I totally agree with what you wrote, at some point I was thinking that this season had a bit of misogynic flair because of how little and inconsequent the women have been involved this season; however it is not the right word as I don't think the writers are against women but this season (even though we know that at least 2 writers are women: Michelle Ricci & Carol Hay) has a very masculine atmosphere and it appears that the writers have forgotten what was making the charm of the show in the first place, as Helene Joy mentioned regarding Julia "the grace" of her character is missing (as Emily time and time again has been showing a colder side imo as well as youthful impertinence and sometimes arrogance which made me not connect with the character much or at all). This season is missing it's spark because the charm and grace are gone and I bet (even though it is still an assumption) that a table surrounded by mostly male writers do not get that at all!!!! For the rest also, the separation between men and women throughout the season has been a wrong move, whatever the writers were hoping for, it didn't work. Sure you can have characters developing and changing but do not change the foundation of something that is working (the entire team working to solve the case, Julia & William in professional and personal situations etc….) Also someone posted above that maybe the writers don't pay much attention to our comments because the ratings are still good. I'm part of one of the main FB group about MM and writers are part of it and they do read our comments and sometimes they participate in conversations, so they do know what's going on regarding our main complaints and if they know what's good for them they will pay attention. After all, why going to all these boards, FB groups, twitter etc…if you don't care what the fans think. That is why I'm staying hopeful that there will be some fixing in season 9 (cross fingers), however and for me this will be different than in previous seasons, the break between season 8 & season 9 will surely be a nice reprieve from my disappointment rather than an agonizing wait :/ I believe you make several excellent points. While Emily and Julia hold the potential for an excellent proto-feminist plot, this season has largely wasted their opportunity to contribute in a professional capacity. I spent the first five or six episodes wondering if Julia was forced to give up her job at the mental hospital (as married women were often forced to do in those days), because we NEVER saw her at her office or being called on to give criminal profiling advice to William. That aspect of her character was utterly discarded. Whenever the writing staff says "we need something for these characters to do," you've got a serious problem with priorities and empathy. In this case, it reflects on the failure to understand that traits like culture, race, gender, and sexuality should inform rather than define a person. Well put! I was wondering too if Julia had quit her job after her marriage as well-no mention was made until 8x13 The Incurables. Emily and Julia have the potential for great, dynamic roles and characterization. Julia's had this in the past, and if I were Helene, I'd be super-frustrated professionally that my once dynamic character has been reduced to arm candy. The fact that they think a few token suffragette scenes equals dynamic female leads is disappointing. I don't think it's overt sexism or discrimination or even intentional, but if you've got a bunch of young male writers who aren't that versed in the ways of women and/or life, they tend to write women who are one-dimensional. Being able to write about the perspectives of people other than you is something that comes with age and experience, IMO. To be fair, I'd also make that claim about young female writers when writing about men. Without life experience as a teacher, you're not going to be able to empathize and relate to characters who aren't like you. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 18, 2015 10:10:03 GMT
I wonder if they were trying something new this season, perhaps trying to take it in a different direction thinking it was getting stale after 7 seasons. I don't happen to think so but they did say they were making changes and change for change sake isn't always good. Unfortunately those changes certainly have NOT worked out for the better. Hopefully they look back and do a post mortem on what went wrong. Though I suspect they don't think anything went wrong as viewship rose, therefore it MUST have been fine mustn't it! However I think viewship rose because people tuned in to this series that's been on so long they must be doing something right and of course they won't see anything wrong if they didn't watch any of the earlier seasons. Rather than change things they need to go back and look at seasons 1-4 and see what they were doing right back then. I know one thing that's different right off the top of my head! Time to go back to the look, feel and types of storylines they were doing back at the start. It may not have been as slick but it was certainly edgy. I agree that viewership rose off the momentum from previous seasons. I do recall some article talking about "big changes" coming this season, though. Even though PM denied it, I think it was an experiment in how to handle the "marriage curse". The basic idea of "William and Julia show they are a modern couple by doing their own thing" is pretty good - the writers just forgot to keep continuous tabs on the fact William and Julia were married at the same time. If William and Julia were going to be kept apart, they had to mark their absence somehow. A picture on a desk, a letter, a packed lunch, a memento - those sorts of things. Jilliam still had to be present in their lives even if William and Julia couldn't be together. Otherwise, what's the point of them being married? At this point, I would rather they hadn't married-and I wanted the wedding! Sometimes I wonder if the writers are trying to spite us. I don't think I believe that, but occasionally, it does cross my mind.  I know I've mentioned this before, but in that article I read with head writer/director of Moonlighting (the dreaded Moonlighting Curse), he states that the couple's getting together had nothing to do with the decline of the show and he's rather annoyed that it keeps being cited as a factor for prolonging UST. He mentions a perfect storm of off-the-set factors such as her complicated high-risk pregnancy, his being unavailable for filming for prolonged periods because he was shooting Die Hard (meaning they often weren't in scenes together), a writer's strike, etc were the causes for the implosion. Not a hook up.  It was enlightening. So, I think that ironically, the show has created a self-fulfilling prophecy. The show is missing the romantic spark between W/J, which they themselves wrote out. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 18, 2015 10:15:31 GMT
William is quite capable of participating in politics however he chooses not to. He's shown himself to be quite astute where politics are concerned, moreso that Brackenreid. However there's no chance he will ever get a promotion given the Orange Lodge hold over all Toronto politics at the time. In fact it would be a couple of decades before a Catholic would get anywhere. George stands a better chance of becoming Chief Constable than Wiliam becoming an inspector. I'm wondering if William would have better luck getting promoted in some other part of Canada, perhaps Montreal, Winnipeg, or Vancouver? That might be an interesting conclusion for the show. That would indeed be an interesting conclusion. But there's that pesky RoD canon to contend with about the Murdochs coming from a long line of Toronto cops going back to the 1890's... It'll be interesting to see how closely they adhere to facts given in that episode. |
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Post by murdochic on Mar 18, 2015 12:14:28 GMT
George may seem younger than he is because he's been stuck in a constable's job for a decade longer than he should have been... I don't think George should be a detective, but he should be a Sergeant. He is best as a uniformed police officer. Higgins has also spent a decade as a constable. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Mar 18, 2015 12:52:11 GMT
I'm a bit late to the party on this one but alas! I am here now! "I think that Constable Crabtree should be encouraged to follow his instincts."* *but only when supernatural elements are not invovled and he follows a more rational line of thinking. i.e no werewolves, zombies, mummies and martians. I loved how quickly Julia and the girls hid those wine glasses. (and how Julia so quickly drowned hers) Oh my goodness. That was a well paced pole. I have a feeling the barber's running a scam. This cannot end well for the Brackenrieds. (maybe they end up living in the suite next to the Murdoch's in the hotel?) That would be funny/awkward. Oh Murdoch making innuendos. You can tell someone is married now. Murdoch is not good with Simon. Like not at all. Ugh. I wish Miss Hamiltion would remove herself from that fox she is wearing. OOHH Margaret Haile's face when she saw those pamphlets USE YOUR KUNG FU SKILLS GEORGE "He'll be fine" *RUN AWAY RUN AWAY* d'awww GENDA! oh my goodness that cheezy music awwww yeesss Murdoch undercover shotsshotsshotsshotsshotsshotsshotsshots George looked somewhat concerned, with both Brackenreid and Murdoch touching him. d'aww he looked so flabbergasted. I want Crabtree to get the position, but I want him to continue at Stationhouse No. 4. IM SO TORN *sobs* What? I missed an innuendo? |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Mar 18, 2015 13:38:21 GMT
William is quite capable of participating in politics however he chooses not to. He's shown himself to be quite astute where politics are concerned, moreso that Brackenreid. However there's no chance he will ever get a promotion given the Orange Lodge hold over all Toronto politics at the time. In fact it would be a couple of decades before a Catholic would get anywhere. George stands a better chance of becoming Chief Constable than Wiliam becoming an inspector. I'm wondering if William would have better luck getting promoted in some other part of Canada, perhaps Montreal, Winnipeg, or Vancouver? That might be an interesting conclusion for the show. We already know he would. In S3 Stockton offers him either an inspector or chief constable position (can't remember) in Winnipeg because he caused so much trouble with investigating their own. So, I suppose he could get offered it again and they could go out that way. Also, Winnipeg is closer to his cherished Alberta Badlands that he so desperately wants to take his family to...and that's always how I pictured the last scene of the series. Hmm, I think you might really be on to something here! |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 18, 2015 13:39:04 GMT
William is quite capable of participating in politics however he chooses not to. He's shown himself to be quite astute where politics are concerned, moreso that Brackenreid. However there's no chance he will ever get a promotion given the Orange Lodge hold over all Toronto politics at the time. In fact it would be a couple of decades before a Catholic would get anywhere. George stands a better chance of becoming Chief Constable than Wiliam becoming an inspector. I'm wondering if William would have better luck getting promoted in some other part of Canada, perhaps Montreal, Winnipeg, or Vancouver? That might be an interesting conclusion for the show. William would definitely be better off career wise in Montreal or Winnipeg but he doesn't want to go. I think CC Stockton suggested Winnipeg to William after TGW as it was a Catholic city, he'd be out of his hair and could get the promotion he deserved. Obviously at first he didn't want to move because Julia was in Toronto and she wouldn't have gone with him. Now they're married and what's left of her family is no longer in Toronto there really isn't anything keeping them there except William's work 'family'. Montreal may be difficult for Julia as she doesn't speak French, not sure what the Anglo population was like at that time. Julia would definitely be able to set up her own practice no matter where she went so her career isn't an issue. |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Mar 18, 2015 13:48:18 GMT
We're bound to have some W/J next week. I don't think MM are trying to substitute George or Emily's background romances for W/J. The writers just don't have a relationship based storyline for them atm. I'm fine with them not having a big storyline as a couple, I just wish they wouldn't go an episode without at least one scene. It always makes MM feel flat. Edna is cute and I like her, but unless George is leaving I don't expect them to last. Anymore than I expect Emily and Lillian to, the fact they were ignored this episode shows they aren't more than a plot device. I think they have chemistry but I can't say I have any attachment to their romance. It hasn't been developed enough for that. Though I'd support any romance that wasn't George and Emily, I think they're awful together. This season has at least shown us that they are better with other people. Whoever that may be. I'd be all for Emily getting another girlfriend once Lillian is inevitably out of the picture. I completely agree with what the women are doing and saying, it's just the election storyline itself isn't very interesting and it's sidelining Julia and Emily too much. Next season they both better be back in the thick of the crimes. That way they'd be used more and W/J would have reasons to interact on screen. I can't see an honorable way for George to lose Edna unless her husband came back. Oops.  While I can see ways for Emily to lose Lillian, I'd rather see her become a semi-regular like Margaret. I think her character had a ton of potential. You can't say she's boring! She might make an interesting replacement for that reporter Paddy Glenn - always getting in everyone's face's about police corruption and abhorrent conditions in the city! LMAO! That's exactly the cliched soap opera crap I wrote into my Lemily fic (of all places)! If he does turn out not be dead after all, I will seriously lose my shit! Since they basically ignored their relationship this episode, there's either going to be a dramatic conclusion to their relationship very soon, or Lillian is in S9...but I do think that part of the shows problem now is that they keep adding characters and forgetting about others. Where the hell has Jackson been? It isn't filming OB cuz those schedules don't clash much. Back in the 'good old days' they only had four characters to deal with and they received the proper attention. I understand that change is inevitable and that shows have to evolve to stay fresh, but sometimes they evolve too much away from what they once were. Which is basically what all our problems are with this season. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 18, 2015 13:51:58 GMT
While I can see ways for Emily to lose Lillian, I'd rather see her become a semi-regular like Margaret. I think her character had a ton of potential. You can't say she's boring! She might make an interesting replacement for that reporter Paddy Glenn - always getting in everyone's face's about police corruption and abhorrent conditions in the city! Oh please NOOOOO! Any potential Lillian Moss had was lost the minute she dissed Julia. It's not that I don't sympathise with her plight, it's just that I don't sympathise with her attitude. There are other characters that can rub me the wrong way, Terrance Myers for one but rather than hate him I love him. The difference is in the way they handle themselves. Lillian walks 'rough shod' over everyone she has no political savvy at all which is strange given her obvious passion for politics. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 18, 2015 13:54:01 GMT
I can foresee Lillian as a tragic character who gets Emily into a boatload of trouble. If handled very smartly, this could be both brilliant and heartbreaking. I imagine some scenario in or near the season finale where I say "well, she's not wrong, but that's really not helping." I've already said that. She has many good ideas but her execution sucks. She'll get herself and anyone connected to her in trouble. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 18, 2015 14:00:24 GMT
It seems like everyone thought the wine glasses were the height of the episode! Those women be scene-stealing! Good point about William and Simon. I spotted some tension there, too. I wonder why, since William is usually good with kids. The only previous example was in Child's Play where William suspected the boy was taking advantage of Julia's maternal instincts. Does he think George is too close to Simon and he will be "trapped" into fatherhood? I was expecting to see some Kung Fu Crabtree in the wrestling ring, too! But alas, George seems to have forgotten his China Town Training Day! Isn't it sad that the best scene in the ep lasted a split second? I noticed the way William acted around Simon too and thought it strange. He was fine as long as he was getting what he wanted but as soon as he had his information he was dismissed. Hope he doesn't have a son like Simon or perhaps he's changed his mind where kids are concerned. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 18, 2015 14:25:43 GMT
Well put! I was wondering too if Julia had quit her job after her marriage as well-no mention was made until 8x13 The Incurables. Emily and Julia have the potential for great, dynamic roles and characterization. Julia's had this in the past, and if I were Helene, I'd be super-frustrated professionally that my once dynamic character has been reduced to arm candy. The fact that they think a few token suffragette scenes equals dynamic female leads is disappointing. I don't think it's overt sexism or discrimination or even intentional, but if you've got a bunch of young male writers who aren't that versed in the ways of women and/or life, they tend to write women who are one-dimensional. Being able to write about the perspectives of people other than you is something that comes with age and experience, IMO. To be fair, I'd also make that claim about young female writers when writing about men. Without life experience as a teacher, you're not going to be able to empathize and relate to characters who aren't like you. Whilst we haven't seen Julia working until TI she has been seen in her office so it was obvious she was still working. Here are the writers of S8 so far: On the Waterfront: Part 1 Peter Mitchell On the Waterfront: Part 2 Peter Mitchell Glory Days Peter Mitchell & Jordan Christianson Holy Matrimony, Murdoch! Paul Aitken Murdoch Takes Manhattan Simon McNabb The Murdoch Appreciation Society Carol Hay What Lies Buried Paul Aitken High Voltage Carol Hay The Keystone Constables Jordan Christianson Murdoch & the Temple of Death Paul Aitken All That Glitters Lori Spring The Devil Wears Whalebone Michelle Ricci The Incurables Peter Mitchell Toronto's Girl Problem Michelle Ricci Shipwreck Maureen Jennings CrabtreeMania Simon McNabb & Jordan Christianson So there are the two 'new boys' but they've only written three episodes between them, one of them surprisingly MTM. TKC had a lot of Julia though in her capacity as Mrs. Murdoch but it was still a good ep. Seems we can't blame the young male writers for the lack of Jilliam! |
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It was enlightening. 
Jan 30, 2013 21:44:55 GMT