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Post by snacky on Feb 13, 2015 22:15:37 GMT
I've heard of the Moonlighting Curse pretty much my whole life-I've never seen the show (too young when it aired), but it's been more than 25 years now...can we let the effects of this so-called curse die? If anything, note the mistakes made and try not to repeat them. History does not have to be repeated! I guess I'm not that pop culture savvy because PM's description was the first time I'd heard marrying the UST couple as "the Moonlighting Curse". I do know it seems to be a given among TV writers that marriage will kill a show, and I can see the logic behind that if you're using a kind of Hero's Journey model of entertainment writing: marriage is the capstone of a major quest. Often the love quest is the only one that's spanning across many episodes and seasons and providing character development glue for the whole series. Your article even uses the word "quest" in the Big Bang theory section. I tend to agree with this reasoning, which is why I was wary about the marriage and am really hoping that neither the writers nor the audience insist on turning this quest model into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It would be a lot more fun to find creative ways out of the trap. My own best reference point for an elaborate dialogue that occurred between writers and audience over long term evolving TV relationships is The X-Files. Some elements of Murdoch Mysteries makes me think some of the writers and/or production team had some background in TXF, which makes me wonder if that experience doesn't inform some of their decision making here. For TXF they used the UST model with the emphasis on the U (UNRESOLVED sexual tension) - so most of the time the forums (at the dawn of the Internet) were at war over whether a romantic relationship even existed. I think it took something like 8 seasons to even get a kiss. Then we got to assume some dating may or may not have been going on in the background, but there was certainly never a wedding. Long after the show was over, there was a movie that showed Mulder and Scully secretly living together. So it seems like the writers thought the audience was strong on the shipper side, so they wanted to confirm the relationship for them. However, they also thought that too much flirting would create "tease exhaustion" and force them into the marriage corner, which would close that quest cycle (and also be intolerable to the segment of the audience that was trying to pretend no romance existed). I have to admit that UST was one thing TXF did really well for YEARS. I never felt like the "tease has gone on too long" or "these guys have to get married now". I would have been surprised to see them go out on a date! I was grateful to see them go out on a quasi-date of some sort related to their work. Little caring moments rocked my world. By the way, little caring moments would rock my world on Murdoch Mysteries, too. And William and Julia ARE ALREADY MARRIED!!! Murdoch Mysteries is like the anti-X-Files in a way because they don't do supernatural mysteries. But perhaps part of the success of MM is that they filled the void TXF left behind. That show had a huge crossover female "shipper" audience after it started off as a Friday night geeky-creepy UFO-monster mystery show. Like MM TXF was supposed to be cancelled after 5 seasons. It wasn't ultimately killed by a "Moonlighting Curse", though Mulder and Scully did confirm their relationship eventually. The writing and production values got crappier as they exhausted their ideas (and failed to bring in new blood?), and they couldn't raise enough money to pay veteran cast and crew. I would not like to see this happen to MM either: if it does, hopefully people will be able to be discern between that and the "Moonlighting Curse". |
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Post by Hodge on Feb 13, 2015 22:31:54 GMT
I tend to agree with this reasoning, which is why I was wary about the marriage and am really hoping that neither the writers nor the audience insist on turning this quest model into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It would be a lot more fun to find creative ways out of the trap. My own best reference point for an elaborate dialogue that occurred between writers and audience over long term evolving TV relationships is The X-Files. Some elements of Murdoch Mysteries makes me think some of the writers and/or production team had some background in TXF, which makes me wonder if that experience doesn't inform some of their decision making here. For TXF they used the UST model with the emphasis on the U (UNRESOLVED sexual tension) - so most of the time the forums (at the dawn of the Internet) were at war over whether a romantic relationship even existed. I think it took something like 8 seasons to even get a kiss. Then we got to assume some dating may or may not have been going on in the background, but there was certainly never a wedding. Long after the show was over, there was a movie that showed Mulder and Scully secretly living together. So it seems like the writers thought the audience was strong on the shipper side, so they wanted to confirm the relationship for them. However, they also thought that too much flirting would create "tease exhaustion" and force them into the marriage corner, which would close that quest cycle (and also be intolerable to the segment of the audience that was trying to pretend no romance existed). I have to admit that UST was one thing TXF did really well for YEARS. I never felt like the "tease has gone on too long" or "these guys have to get married now". I would have been surprised to see them go out on a date! I was grateful to see them go out on a quasi-date of some sort related to their work. Little caring moments rocked my world. By the way, little caring moments would rock my world on Murdoch Mysteries, too. And William and Julia ARE ALREADY MARRIED!!! I was wary about marriage but then I hadn't been watching for 7 years, I did the 7 seasons in about 4 months. If I'd watched this couple go through their ups and downs for 7 years perhaps I'd be hungry for a wedding too. I have to admit that despite not wanting a wedding I really didn't see how they could come up with another plausible reason for not marrying. I watched the TXF for years but eventually dropped it as I got bored with all the conspiracy theory stuff, I preferred it when it was the 'strange crime of the week'. I never saw a relationship and would never expect the two to go out let alone become a couple. Perhaps the difference is that Mulder and Scully were partners and William and Julia were professionals that helped each other on cases and that's why this worked for me where a M/S relationship wouldn't. I totally agree with your last thought! |
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Post by snacky on Feb 13, 2015 22:53:53 GMT
I watched the TXF for years but eventually dropped it as I got bored with all the conspiracy theory stuff, I preferred it when it was the 'strange crime of the week'. I never saw a relationship and would never expect the two to go out let alone become a couple. Perhaps the difference is that Mulder and Scully were partners and William and Julia were professionals that helped each other on cases and that's why this worked for me where a M/S relationship wouldn't. Perhaps I saw more because I participated on a forum just like this one and we over-analyzed a lot!  But the people who didn't see the romance there certainly hated our guts for it. Especially when the writers finally did commit to it. |
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Post by fan2tvshows on Feb 14, 2015 18:23:51 GMT
Then let me ask you this. If the show is falling apart and fans are becoming dissatisfied, why are viewing numbers going up? [/p]
[/quote] Just because they haven't yet seen the three last seasons of MM. Their opinion is surely based on the first episodes which are the best ones. |
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Post by Hodge on Feb 14, 2015 19:13:37 GMT
Then let me ask you this. If the show is falling apart and fans are becoming dissatisfied, why are viewing numbers going up? [/p] [/quote] Just because they haven't yet seen the three last seasons of MM. Their opinion is surely based on the first episodes which are the best ones.[/quote] The numbers are going up because it's attracting new people, probably because it's a murder mystery. It's only after you've watched for a while that you get drawn into the characters which is what I believe then keeps people coming back and I don't necessarily mean the romance arc. The characters in this show are some of the strongest and most interesting I've seen in any show. MM viewers are nothing if not loyal I think the ones that are dissatisfied will stick out this season in the hopes that S9 is better. I have enjoyed this season despite my complaint of the marginalization of our strong women. I have loved the eps where they were featured though. My only complaint about Jilliam is that PM said he wanted to prove romance doesn't die after marriage and it seems to me he hasn't. I believe lizmc was talking about the Canadian ratings for S8 increasing which means it's attracting new viewers that probably haven't seen the earlier seasons. I for one wasn't able to watch the earlier seasons when they first aired as CityTV is a cable/satellite channel and we were on an antenna for years. It was only after we got satellite I was able to watch though it had moved to CBC by then. |
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Post by snacky on Feb 14, 2015 19:14:16 GMT
Then let me ask you this. If the show is falling apart and fans are becoming dissatisfied, why are viewing numbers going up? This remark probably needs to be clarified a bit. I believe lizmc is talking about the Canadian audience and fan2tvshows is talking about the French audience. While fan is caught up to the current episode, the episodes of MM airing on French TV (which are attracting a growing French audience) aren't current. fan2tvshows - what season/episode is France currently on? However, the opinions of the French group that is invested enough to keep up with the current episode is also important: these are the guys making the vids and images, writing the fic, making the tumblr posts - doing all the fan work as "taste makers" for MM. So leaving the impression that William is a "bad husband" is, er,...bad advertising.  |
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Post by snacky on Feb 14, 2015 19:39:00 GMT
One thing I worry about in regard to numbers is a sort of lag effect: you will get the maximum number of people AFTER the peak of a show, because more will come to check out what everyone else is watching. Then, once they are "hooked", people keep giving the show a chance, waiting for problems to be resolved. Meanwhile, because the audience is huge, no one addresses the problems. I always thought this is part of what happened to The X-Files, which got really lazy about editing and production values in later seasons. You could literally see the bad splices of video. Also the actors often "phoned it in". Part of that may have been salary disputes (there was a problematic discrepancy between the two leads). Also, since this was right at the cusp of the age of computer preservation of video and fan art, people associated with the show were still expressing the idea that once an episode was made, it was "toilet paper". Perhaps it would be seen again in rare syndication - but that was it. Boy were they wrong! Fans preserved the screenshots and the captured the video for posterity! The episodes were packaged as DVDs. They could have regarded what they were doing as an art form, but they chose not to. The viewers saw a lot of crap that didn't make sense being tossed up on screen and gradually drifted elsewhere. Two things are really important to maintaining a longterm large audience: consistency in reference to show bible and quality production values EVERY EPISODE. Quality production values tend to cover for even huge plot holes (though it would be nice if we had outstanding writing for every episode as well!). The fuss that's being made now over the marginalization of women, and perhaps to a lesser extent the one over whether there is any evidence of Jilliam after marriage or not, are Show Bible issues. MM's presentation of women has been a really notable aspect of the show - unusual for shows set in that time period and part of what struck a chord with women viewing it. The marriage issue relates to character development and how longterm relationship arcs serve as a sort of backbone of the show. If writers do choose to screw with a biblical aspect of the show in some way, they should have a plan for resolving it. |
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Post by fan2tvshows on Feb 14, 2015 19:46:06 GMT
I would add that I can see through the scenes between Julia and William that the actors have difficulties to be/remain professional. And I start to think that writers had to adapt the scripts in this season in response to their changing moods. What are you suggesting with this? Do you think they have a thing for one another or do you mean they can no longer stand each other. Either way I think you're wrong. I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. |
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 14, 2015 20:38:26 GMT
What are you suggesting with this? Do you think they have a thing for one another or do you mean they can no longer stand each other. Either way I think you're wrong. I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. You have a good idea there. I, for one, do not perceive any anger between the actors. I do believe that neither one is very fond of physically romantic scenes. Yannick is happily married and Helene I think is gay. There, I said it. Find me any mention of ANY relationship she's had that has made it to the media. Whatever the reasons, there are so many ways for the writer to include romantic/loving gestures without them getting really physical. I must say though, after Julia's nightmare in "The Incurables" it would have been nice to see them spoon together as a way to convey William's care and concern for her in 3 seconds instead of the time wasted on his flopping back down and zooming in on her face. |
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Post by fan2tvshows on Feb 14, 2015 21:01:06 GMT
This remark probably needs to be clarified a bit. I believe lizmc is talking about the Canadian audience and fan2tvshows is talking about the French audience. While fan is caught up to the current episode, the episodes of MM airing on French TV (which are attracting a growing French audience) aren't current. fan2tvshows - what season/episode is France currently on? However, the opinions of the French group that is invested enough to keep up with the current episode is also important: these are the guys making the vids and images, writing the fic, making the tumblr posts - doing all the fan work as "taste makers" for MM. So leaving the impression that William is a "bad husband" is, er,...bad advertising. In France, there were four episodes every Sunday night (with no ads before, during or even between the episodes): an all new episod of the seventh season followed by three random picked up from the first five seasons. And we surely must wait until september for watching the eighth season. But once you are caught, you can't stop watching even if you are disappointed. At least, it's the truth in my case and I can't explain it. Maybe I'm too optimistic, I hope they will find again this little "I don't know what" which made this TV show a great success with a good balance between mysteries, romance -especially between Julia and William, my favorite-, funny times -I miss them-, a set ofhistorical, social, political, ethical and geographical references. But it won't be true with the next season if they do an all new one. |
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Post by carco on Feb 14, 2015 21:10:05 GMT
What are you suggesting with this? Do you think they have a thing for one another or do you mean they can no longer stand each other. Either way I think you're wrong. I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. Whatever is going on with the actors off screen (and I myself, could care less), to allow it to permeate on-screen (as some seem to suggest) would be unprofessional beyond belief. If one can't "act" a part then one shouldn't be an "actor".
But I doubt very much that Directors, for example, would risk their own professional reputations by even allowing it to come across on screen and I can't imagine, for a minute, that a team of writers would cater to individual egos by writing around it.
Personally, I'm with my co-workers all day and for the most part they're great people and I enjoy working with them even after 10+ years for some of us . "Working" being the operative word. I honestly don't look forward to all the rah-rah events, galas, dinners, etc. that we are expected to attend after a full workday, where we have to go to the Toronto Convention Centre and spend another 4-5 hours in each other's presence. It's been along day of commuting and working and by then I'd rather be relaxing at home with my husband. It wouldn't surprise me at all if my body language betrayed my feelings at those events.
And occasionally a co-worker and I might happen to have disagreeing viewpoints on a work issue. I don't dislike them, heck, we've worked together more than 10 years and we spend 5 days a week/ 8 hrs/day together.... that's way more time than I spend with my husband during the week. But if that "off day" with my co-worker happened to also be one where we had to sit through a dinner together at the CC, then some people might pick up the moody vibes; if they studied us all evening.
If we look hard enough and when we analyze things to the nth degree, fodder for rumour and gossip can be found anywhere.
This is a board with a lot of passionate viewers and I get that and I understand cultures look at the same thing with different eyes but IMHO this line of discussion feels uncomfortable to me and I feel like it's heading nowhere good.
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Post by Hodge on Feb 14, 2015 21:19:14 GMT
I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. You have a good idea there. I, for one, do not perceive any anger between the actors. I do believe that neither one is very fond of physically romantic scenes. Yannick is happily married and Helene I think is gay. There, I said it. Find me any mention of ANY relationship she's had that has made it to the media. Whatever the reasons, there are so many ways for the writer to include romantic/loving gestures without them getting really physical. I must say though, after Julia's nightmare in "The Incurables" it would have been nice to see them spoon together as a way to convey William's care and concern for her in 3 seconds instead of the time wasted on his flopping back down and zooming in on her face. Apparently she came to Canada because of a Canadian boyfriend. I've just flicked through The Incurables sans sound. I noticed a distance between Yannick and everyone he was in a scene with. |
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Post by fan2tvshows on Feb 14, 2015 21:59:14 GMT
I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. You have a good idea there. I, for one, do not perceive any anger between the actors. I do believe that neither one is very fond of physically romantic scenes. Yannick is happily married and Helene I think is gay. There, I said it. Find me any mention of ANY relationship she's had that has made it to the media. Whatever the reasons, there are so many ways for the writer to include romantic/loving gestures without them getting really physical. I must say though, after Julia's nightmare in "The Incurables" it would have been nice to see them spoon together as a way to convey William's care and concern for her in 3 seconds instead of the time wasted on his flopping back down and zooming in on her face. About the anger or whaterver it is, I based my opinion on the video about the 100th episode. m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC4AE5B7BAB322839&index=1&v=hd8ims28SS8In the other previous interviews, we could notice that they built up a great complicity between them. But in this one, it's the Cold War. Yannick BISSON seems to be ill-at-ease. He keeps his head turned toward the opposite side from her. He remains upright as if he is afraid of touching her. And it's the same for her. Hélène JOY turns her back on him all the time and she stays as far as possible from him.They don't talk to each other and they even don't look at each other. No smiles and laughters anymore. I don't care about gossip magazines. I just notice that they as actors were pretty good at giving us the illusion that the two characters were truly in love with each other. Now, I notice that Yannick BISSON don't know where he can lay his hands. See how fast he removed his hand from her thigh in "The Devil Wears Whalebone". And in the last episode, when she run in his arms, he didn't open his arms, he just put them in front of him as he expected her to take his hands. Bref, quel gâchis! What a waste! And of course, the "after nightmare" scene should have been different but as you said: "neither one is very fond of physically romantic scenes" -and I would add- anymore. They had no such problem in "The Green Muse". |
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 14, 2015 22:12:43 GMT
You have a good idea there. I, for one, do not perceive any anger between the actors. I do believe that neither one is very fond of physically romantic scenes. Yannick is happily married and Helene I think is gay. There, I said it. Find me any mention of ANY relationship she's had that has made it to the media. Whatever the reasons, there are so many ways for the writer to include romantic/loving gestures without them getting really physical. I must say though, after Julia's nightmare in "The Incurables" it would have been nice to see them spoon together as a way to convey William's care and concern for her in 3 seconds instead of the time wasted on his flopping back down and zooming in on her face. About the anger or whaterver it is, I based my opinion on the video about the 100th episode. m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC4AE5B7BAB322839&index=1&v=hd8ims28SS8I don't need to see the video. I was there...in the room with hundreds of adoring fans. I can assure you that there was nothing negative in their banter or interaction. I understand you saw Helene leaning away from Yannick but it was a function of how the stage had been set up. There were 10 chairs in a direct line so people had to shift themselves to see the others. That whole group was having a great time! The part where Yannick was re-enacting the 'wedding ride' had them both laughing like crazy. That his BY FAR the most suggestive, physical scene EVER on MM. There was some embarrassment from both of them because it was so graphically suggestive...something MM doesn't do but there was no anger to be seen, IMO. |
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Post by snacky on Feb 14, 2015 22:16:31 GMT
I just noticed that there is a distance between the two actors. I focuse my attention on their body language and (IMHO) I have the feeling that Yannick BISSON and Hélène JOY are angry with one another. And whatever the reason -it doesn't really matter to me/it's not my business/I'm not this kind of fans-, I just think they couldn't hide it in their interactions during the filming and I also suppose that they surely must be rather reticent to play certain scenes so the writers were obliged to cut/delete them. I'm French and yes, I must admit to have some difficulties to well understand English. I often asked SNACKY for translations. And maybe you think that I'm stupid to base a part of my opinion on the body language but according to me, it's very revealing. Do I have to remind that you can know when people are lying to you when their eyes go to the left? An evidence that you can't totally control your body. Another example, when you don't like or angry with someone, you hate that he or she touch you. So do the test: mute and watch as if you don't understand English. I often got this same vibe, but then I had to remind myself that both Yannick and Helene are trying to play proper Victorians who ARE uncomfortable with each other. Yannick particularly overplayed this during the first couple of years to the point where people were developing "autistic" theories about his character. However, there are also people right in Toronto (like lovemondays), who can go check out what's happening personally. Perhaps everyone does get along just fine, even off camera, and the "body language" we see is just the Victorian thing. Other than that, Canadians (and people who spawn off British culture in general) are more reserved in terms of body language, and Yannick is married to boot, so maybe that's the distance that comes across during interviews...? By the way, the "eyes to the left" thing isn't concrete evidence: it can't be used in a court of law, for example. It might just mean someone is distracted by something occurring to the left. Internally, it just means someone is using the functions on that side of the brain - not necessarily lying. |
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