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Post by snacky on Jan 25, 2015 4:46:46 GMT
At the end of the Cloud of Doom ep, the guy in prison challenges William about whether he would go to the same extreme lengths (holding a city hostage, breaking the law, going to jail, possibly committing murder...) to save the woman he loved. Later in the season William is indeed tested this way when Julia goes to prison for Darcy's murder, and William's efforts to clear her only uncover evidence of her guilt. This isn't the first time William's love for Julia has been tested. You might say his struggle to come to terms with her abortion was a test. In the Circus episode the Fortune Teller warned William that he would have to make a great sacrifice to be with the one he loved. It's never been clear what that sacrifice was - possibly children. William had to come to terms with that when Julia left him. And again, William had to ask God what He thought about Julia's Divorce before he could proceed with their plans. I found this a bit ludicrous in light of how long he had been pining for Julia and how he had been fine with Julia lying under oath to get an annulment. William seems to be getting highly selective about his qualms in middle age. Fortunately God confirms Love Uber Alles. I'm not a religious person, but all these challenges and trials are starting to take on a bit of a holy glow for me. Is this a religious pattern that I'm vaguely remembering from Bible school? Of course there's also the Grail Quest pattern, too: that involves a lot of tests and challenges to prove pure knighthood. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. If it is the Grail quest, I guess that's done since William wasn't harmed by the actual Grail, lol.   |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jan 25, 2015 5:06:58 GMT
At the end of the Cloud of Doom ep, the guy in prison challenges William about whether he would go to the same extreme lengths (holding a city hostage, breaking the law, going to jail, possibly committing murder...) to save the woman he loved. Later in the season William is indeed tested this way when Julia goes to prison for Darcy's murder, and William's efforts to clear her only uncover evidence of her guilt. This isn't the first time William's love for Julia has been tested. You might say his struggle to come to terms with her abortion was a test. In the Circus episode the Fortune Teller warned William that he would have to make a great sacrifice to be with the one he loved. It's never been clear what that sacrifice was - possibly children. William had to come to terms with that when Julia left him. And again, William had to ask God what He thought about Julia's Divorce before he could proceed with their plans. I found this a bit ludicrous in light of how long he had been pining for Julia and how he had been fine with Julia lying under oath to get an annulment. William seems to be getting highly selective about his qualms in middle age. Fortunately God confirms Love Uber Alles. I'm not a religious person, but all these challenges and trials are starting to take on a bit of a holy glow for me. Is this a religious pattern that I'm vaguely remembering from Bible school? Of course there's also the Grail Quest pattern, too: that involves a lot of tests and challenges to prove pure knighthood. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. If it is the Grail quest, I guess that's done since William wasn't harmed by the actual Grail, lol. I really don't know what to make of that Holy Grail. If they still kill Julia off at the end of the season, well, I guess we know it was that. But he relinquished the Grail for no monetary gain, only he didn't know it was the Grail. But maybe he was pure of heart, so he passed a test... Or was the bit about the cup actually being a Grail actually to show George is right, and setting William up for a fall when he (again) underestimates George-this time with dire consequences? I honestly don't know... |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 25, 2015 6:24:54 GMT
At the end of the Cloud of Doom ep, the guy in prison challenges William about whether he would go to the same extreme lengths (holding a city hostage, breaking the law, going to jail, possibly committing murder...) to save the woman he loved. Later in the season William is indeed tested this way when Julia goes to prison for Darcy's murder, and William's efforts to clear her only uncover evidence of her guilt. This isn't the first time William's love for Julia has been tested. You might say his struggle to come to terms with her abortion was a test. In the Circus episode the Fortune Teller warned William that he would have to make a great sacrifice to be with the one he loved. It's never been clear what that sacrifice was - possibly children. William had to come to terms with that when Julia left him. And again, William had to ask God what He thought about Julia's Divorce before he could proceed with their plans. I found this a bit ludicrous in light of how long he had been pining for Julia and how he had been fine with Julia lying under oath to get an annulment. William seems to be getting highly selective about his qualms in middle age. Fortunately God confirms Love Uber Alles. I'm not a religious person, but all these challenges and trials are starting to take on a bit of a holy glow for me. Is this a religious pattern that I'm vaguely remembering from Bible school? Of course there's also the Grail Quest pattern, too: that involves a lot of tests and challenges to prove pure knighthood. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. If it is the Grail quest, I guess that's done since William wasn't harmed by the actual Grail, lol. I really don't know what to make of that Holy Grail. If they still kill Julia off at the end of the season, well, I guess we know it was that. But he relinquished the Grail for no monetary gain, only he didn't know it was the Grail. But maybe he was pure of heart, so he passed a test... Or was the bit about the cup actually being a Grail actually to show George is right, and setting William up for a fall when he (again) underestimates George-this time with dire consequences? I honestly don't know... If William had realized it was the Holy Grail I think he would have made sure it went to the right place, wherever he deemed that to be. Not sure the Vatican would have exclusive rights to it, despite what William may think, as they're not the only Christian faith, a museum would be a more democratic choice. If this is considered a test I think William would come through fine. I always thought the sacrifice William would have to make was the family, or at least a biological family. I can see them sacrificing a constable for the story as in Hodge but I can't see them sacrificing Julia. It would be the end of the show, viewers would leave in droves. Whilst not everyone is a shipper I think the relationship has become a big part of why many people watch, hence the complaints about the lack of Jilliam. If they're trying to kill the show then yes, kill off Julia but I doubt they really want to do either. The audience is growing worldwide, I can't see why they want to end the show, if they play their cards right it could have many more seasons to come ... as long as all the actors are still on board. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jan 25, 2015 14:07:31 GMT
I really don't know what to make of that Holy Grail. If they still kill Julia off at the end of the season, well, I guess we know it was that. But he relinquished the Grail for no monetary gain, only he didn't know it was the Grail. But maybe he was pure of heart, so he passed a test... Or was the bit about the cup actually being a Grail actually to show George is right, and setting William up for a fall when he (again) underestimates George-this time with dire consequences? I honestly don't know... If William had realized it was the Holy Grail I think he would have made sure it went to the right place, wherever he deemed that to be. Not sure the Vatican would have exclusive rights to it, despite what William may think, as they're not the only Christian faith, a museum would be a more democratic choice. If this is considered a test I think William would come through fine. I always thought the sacrifice William would have to make was the family, or at least a biological family. I can see them sacrificing a constable for the story as in Hodge but I can't see them sacrificing Julia. It would be the end of the show, viewers would leave in droves. Whilst not everyone is a shipper I think the relationship has become a big part of why many people watch, hence the complaints about the lack of Jilliam. If they're trying to kill the show then yes, kill off Julia but I doubt they really want to do either. The audience is growing worldwide, I can't see why they want to end the show, if they play their cards right it could have many more seasons to come ... as long as all the actors are still on board. You're right in that William seems to have the passed the test-I just can't shake the feeling that the episode was foreshadowing something. I don't know what, and I think TPTB have done as much as they can without giving too much away in reassuring viewers in regards to Julia's marginalization (possibly/hopefully unintentional) and that they have plans to bring her back next season. I've always wondered what that sacrifice would be as well, and I thought it meant a biological family, but last season's RoD seems to hint that he does get one, so maybe it was years of happiness he had to sacrifice, or all the extra trials he had to go through to finally be with Julia. As soon as I watched Cloud of Doom, I knew he was going to face a similar test with Julia-there's always that ep that hints at the season finale it seems. I think Ragtime was that ep for season 7, and well, I guess we'll soon find out which is the harbinger for this season. I hope it's not Temple of Death.  In regards to the show being quite heavy on religious symbolism, I've mentioned somewhere here before that I thought there were quite a few references-including Julia's red dress at the ball (Scarlet Letter anyone?), the 7 year courtship, the various tests, and trials, etc. I'm sure there are more that I have missed-I'm not the greatest biblical scholar.  |
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Post by snacky on Jan 25, 2015 20:56:37 GMT
Or was the bit about the cup actually being a Grail actually to show George is right, and setting William up for a fall when he (again) underestimates George-this time with dire consequences? IMHO, the only way they would kill Julia off is if Helene herself took another job and did it in a way that interfered with the MM schedule and really burned some bridges and/or couldn't come to terms on contract negotiations. I don't think the writers would write her out of the story line just because they didn't know what to do with her or just to make things interesting: they know the fans are invested in that character, and that would be a massive failure of skill/talent on their part not to be able to write for her character. Regarding the Grail Curse - I don't think there's a timeline on it. I think it's meant to be an "oops" - sort of like Inspector B holding the x-ray plates where he shouldn't. He doesn't have cancer yet... Regarding William's Fall, I'm kind of disappointed that the writers seem to have dropped the "hubris" storyline that I thought they were setting up really well with William being rewarded for service to the mayor and being acknowledged by all and sundry as a "Great Detective". This is the point where a Nemesis (unfortunately they already killed Gillies) needed to come in and take William down a notch for over-confidence. I was looking forward to it! But instead the writers sort of punted with William hitting the glass ceiling over Catholicism again. Meh. Now you point out there is a secondary "hubris" storyline in William trusting in his "reason" too much. He ignores George, and he ignored the "superstitious" curse on the wall. Will ignoring these supernatural forces and putting too much stock in his powers of reason set William up for a fall? That would be cool - and George could probably bro-rescue him, too. But the writers will probably punt on this, too. They seem to be good at micro plots but not so good following through on larger arcs or understanding how archetypical patterns work. |
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Post by snacky on Jan 25, 2015 21:11:42 GMT
If William had realized it was the Holy Grail I think he would have made sure it went to the right place, wherever he deemed that to be. Not sure the Vatican would have exclusive rights to it, despite what William may think, as they're not the only Christian faith, a museum would be a more democratic choice. If this is considered a test I think William would come through fine. I always thought the sacrifice William would have to make was the family, or at least a biological family. I can see them sacrificing a constable for the story as in Hodge but I can't see them sacrificing Julia. It would be the end of the show, viewers would leave in droves. Whilst not everyone is a shipper I think the relationship has become a big part of why many people watch, hence the complaints about the lack of Jilliam. If they're trying to kill the show then yes, kill off Julia but I doubt they really want to do either. The audience is growing worldwide, I can't see why they want to end the show, if they play their cards right it could have many more seasons to come ... as long as all the actors are still on board. If William had realized it was the Holy Grail, I think the clash between superstition and science would cause such an explosion in his brain that he would collapse, and someone else would have to make the major decisions. I wonder if William has ever remembered or reflected on this "sacrifice" conversation. The sacrifice could also be some of his high ideals and pretensions as well. There is the question of whether he would have erased Julia's fingerprints on the bullet, for example... I agree that Julia wouldn't be thrown away spuriously. There would have to be some background contract issue before that happened. |
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Post by snacky on Jan 25, 2015 21:16:17 GMT
You're right in that William seems to have the passed the test-I just can't shake the feeling that the episode was foreshadowing something. I've always wondered what that sacrifice would be as well, and I thought it meant a biological family, but last season's RoD seems to hint that he does get one, so maybe it was years of happiness he had to sacrifice, or all the extra trials he had to go through to finally be with Julia. I guess we'll soon find out which is the harbinger for this season. I hope it's not Temple of Death. In regards to the show being quite heavy on religious symbolism, I've mentioned somewhere here before that I thought there were quite a few references-including Julia's red dress at the ball (Scarlet Letter anyone?), the 7 year courtship, the various tests, and trials, etc. I'm sure there are more that I have missed-I'm not the greatest biblical scholar. I HOPE there was foreshadowing! I agree MM does great light symbolism, but they don't do great arc follow-through. Ragtime was an exception. Temple of Death might have been foreshadowing The Devil Wears Whalebone, which was originally supposed to be an episode or two down the line. I predict Julia is going to collapse the minute William leaves for the hot cocoa - Helene hinted at that on the Wedding panel. |
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Post by Hodge on Jan 25, 2015 21:38:26 GMT
If William had realized it was the Holy Grail I think he would have made sure it went to the right place, wherever he deemed that to be. Not sure the Vatican would have exclusive rights to it, despite what William may think, as they're not the only Christian faith, a museum would be a more democratic choice. If this is considered a test I think William would come through fine. I always thought the sacrifice William would have to make was the family, or at least a biological family. I can see them sacrificing a constable for the story as in Hodge but I can't see them sacrificing Julia. It would be the end of the show, viewers would leave in droves. Whilst not everyone is a shipper I think the relationship has become a big part of why many people watch, hence the complaints about the lack of Jilliam. If they're trying to kill the show then yes, kill off Julia but I doubt they really want to do either. The audience is growing worldwide, I can't see why they want to end the show, if they play their cards right it could have many more seasons to come ... as long as all the actors are still on board. If William had realized it was the Holy Grail, I think the clash between superstition and science would cause such an explosion in his brain that he would collapse, and someone else would have to make the major decisions. I wonder if William has ever remembered or reflected on this "sacrifice" conversation. The sacrifice could also be some of his high ideals and pretensions as well. There is the question of whether he would have erased Julia's fingerprints on the bullet, for example... I agree that Julia wouldn't be thrown away spuriously. There would have to be some background contract issue before that happened. Agreeing to marry Julia despite a divorce was quite a sacrifice for William, it went against all religions at the time. Luckily that's one sacrifice he didn't have to make in the end. I think he would have erased Julia's fingerprints if George hadn't interrupted. |
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Post by snacky on Jan 26, 2015 1:11:26 GMT
I agree William would have erased the fingermarks, but this would have twisted his conscience like Giles. It's also possible Julia would have died or left resenting him anyway.
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 14, 2015 21:12:17 GMT
I agree William would have erased the fingermarks, but this would have twisted his conscience like Giles. It's also possible Julia would have died or left resenting him anyway. I agree that William would have erased the fingermarks but having done that his personal penance would have been to deny himself marriage to her. |
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Post by Hodge on Feb 14, 2015 21:25:22 GMT
I agree William would have erased the fingermarks, but this would have twisted his conscience like Giles. It's also possible Julia would have died or left resenting him anyway. I agree that William would have erased the fingermarks but having done that his personal penance would have been to deny himself marriage to her. Oh, I think he would go that far lovemondays, after all Julia would have had a say in it too. It would definitely have weighed heavy on his conscience but I'm not sure he could have made that much of a sacrifice after all they'd been through to be together. |
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 14, 2015 21:31:30 GMT
I agree that William would have erased the fingermarks but having done that his personal penance would have been to deny himself marriage to her. Oh, I think he would go that far lovemondays, after all Julia would have had a say in it too. It would definitely have weighed heavy on his conscience but I'm not sure he could have made that much of a sacrifice after all they'd been through to be together. Look at what he put himself through after he released Ava Moon! He gave up his beloved job and exiled himself to the Yukon, just for "righting a wrong". Yes, Julia would have some say in it...just as much as she gave William when she ran off to Buffalo to lick her personal wounds. |
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Post by Hodge on Feb 14, 2015 21:33:53 GMT
Oh, I think he would go that far lovemondays, after all Julia would have had a say in it too. It would definitely have weighed heavy on his conscience but I'm not sure he could have made that much of a sacrifice after all they'd been through to be together. Look at what he put himself through after he released Ava Moon! He gave up his beloved job and exiled himself to the Yukon, just for "righting a wrong". Yes, Julia would have some say in it...just as much as she gave William when she ran off to Buffalo to lick her personal wounds. Yes he put himself through the wringer but he'd already decided he'd lost Julia, do you honestly think he'd turn up at the church to stop the wedding even if he'd not released Ava Moon? |
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Post by lovemondays on Feb 14, 2015 21:40:46 GMT
Look at what he put himself through after he released Ava Moon! He gave up his beloved job and exiled himself to the Yukon, just for "righting a wrong". Yes, Julia would have some say in it...just as much as she gave William when she ran off to Buffalo to lick her personal wounds. Yes he put himself through the wringer but he'd already decided he'd lost Julia, do you honestly think he'd turn up at the church to stop the wedding even if he'd not released Ava Moon? No he would not have stopped the wedding. It was a matter of honour because he told Darcy that he wouldn't interfere. I would argue that it is that same sense of honour, in this case to the truth, if violated by removing Julia's fingermark, would break his soul. |
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Post by Hodge on Feb 14, 2015 21:41:43 GMT
Yes he put himself through the wringer but he'd already decided he'd lost Julia, do you honestly think he'd turn up at the church to stop the wedding even if he'd not released Ava Moon? No he would not have stopped the wedding. It was a matter of honour because he told Darcy that he wouldn't interfere. I would argue that it is that same sense of honour, in this case to the truth, if violated by removing Julia's fingermark, would break his soul. Luckily he didn't have to make that choice. |
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