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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:21:50 GMT
If Julia has no insecurities that Eva could exploit, that makes her completely powerless (and boring) as a Super Villain. William has already proven to be immune to her direct charms, so the only way she could hurt him is by driving a wedge between him and Julia. But if he's wise to her and Julia is obviously wise to her, she was the one pointing out how she manipulated men in the first place, how is Eva going to drive a wedge between them? I'm sure that's the way they'll probably play it when Eva does come back but I really don't see it ... at the moment. Unless when she does come back she is completely powerless and that becomes her downfall. If you don't see it, I think that underscores my point: the previous "flirtations" weren't exploited in a way that could have maximized Eva as a threat. The set up was available in these early episodes since women were flirting with William and there are elements of the marriage that could have caused some tensions - but the writers didn't exploit it. Therefore - when we got to Eva, she was not nearly as powerful as she could have been. That's the point I'm trying to make. As I see it Eva's entire power is going to be in exploiting *Julia's* insecurities - but if those insecurities haven't been defined in canon, then...meh.  |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:29:25 GMT
But if he's wise to her and Julia is obviously wise to her, she was the one pointing out how she manipulated men in the first place, how is Eva going to drive a wedge between them? I'm sure that's the way they'll probably play it when Eva does come back but I really don't see it ... at the moment. Unless when she does come back she is completely powerless and that becomes her downfall. If you don't see it, I think that underscores my point: the previous "flirtations" weren't exploited in a way that could have maximized Eva as a threat. The set up was available in these early episodes since women were flirting with William and there are elements of the marriage that could have caused some tensions - but the writers didn't exploit it. Therefore - when we got to Eva, she was not nearly as powerful as she could have been. That's the point I'm trying to make. As I see it Eva's entire power is going to be in exploiting *Julia's* insecurities - but if those insecurities haven't been defined in canon, then...meh. Eva Pearce probably hadn't been thought of early enough in the writing room to make more of the previous women that would then make her more of a threat. Not sure even I understand the sentence I just wrote but I think you'll get my drift. By the time Eva came on scene I suspect it was too late to do anything more with her. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:31:19 GMT
And that's why he was so uncomfortable, he knew he'd screwed up. If Julia had been there as he'd expected things would probably have been fine. Yes, the problem was the writers didn't follow through with any ramifications of that screw up!  That's probably because they would have had to have rewritten the next ep in order to do that. Remember this scene had to be rewritten in this way to make up for Helene's accident. To make more of it would have screwed up the next ep. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:33:00 GMT
I've gone back and forth on who is at fault for season 4, and ultimately, they're both to blame. His stubbornness to sacrifice Julia to maintain his word as a gentleman or refusing to man up and go to Buffalo and at least demand closure to the relationship are both at fault. Julia can see he struggles, knows he's trying to honor her decision as a man of honor, and does nothing. But, she left before she could be rejected at the end of season three, and her insecurities are at play here. Also, she's got her own word to adhere to as she's already agreed to marry Darcy. She does do an incredibly brave thing by putting herself out there at the end of 413, but alas, too little too late. I can't rewatch season 4 because it's maximum angst with no benefit. I don't like angst for angst's sake. It's gratuitous, IMO. I think PM had an excellent point a few weeks ago when he stated that he inherited a mess when he took over at the beginning at season 5; I agree that he did. Whoever was show running in season 4 seems to have been bitter and possibly knew they were being replaced and was trying to ruin the show. I have to dissent - I'm a big heretic in that I love Season 4 (at least since I knew in advance everything would work out for the better). I don't think it's angst for angst sake. Even though Julia was engaged to Darcy, many episodes paved the way for the idea that both she and William had made mistakes and now they had an insurmountable problem to deal with. The fact the Darcy marriage actually happened after all that was an incredible surprise twist - the last thing fans thought would happen! And that ending was decided after the hand-over to CBC had already been decided. PM may have been handed a challenge with the Darcy marriage, but the reality was it delayed the Jilliam marriage a few more seasons and gave them an interesting plot point to work with (Catholic view of divorce). Some of my favorite eps are in Season 4. Buffalo Shuffle, Monsieur Murdoch, Dead End Street, Bloodlust, The Kissing Bandit, Murdoch in Wonderland...I've watched those half a dozen times whereas I'm only going through Season 8 for a 2nd time to watch with my friend eclair. YB really pulls out the "constrained emotion" in Season 4, and I love it! |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:35:04 GMT
Eva Pearce probably hadn't been thought of early enough in the writing room to make more of the previous women that would then make her more of a threat. Not sure even I understand the sentence I just wrote but I think you'll get my drift. By the time Eva came on scene I suspect it was too late to do anything more with her. I agree - it seems like a planning fail. IMHO, if the show is going to deal out a "recurring character" villain they should decide that up front and dedicate some writing arc assets to leading up to it so by the time we get to that episode, William will be facing a worthy nemesis. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:37:55 GMT
Yes, the problem was the writers didn't follow through with any ramifications of that screw up! That's probably because they would have had to have rewritten the next ep in order to do that. Remember this scene had to be rewritten in this way to make up for Helene's accident. To make more of it would have screwed up the next ep. William could have had some to do some 'splaining on the phone during Temple of Death...or Julia could have made an offhand remark about Dr. Bajjali in a later episode. Perhaps how some other woman resembles her... |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:46:52 GMT
But I think Enid was perusing him. He was still reeling after Julia, and all of a sudden a woman starts pursuing him with pies and invitations of home cooked meals-the stereotypical way to a single Victorian man's heart. But William wasn't necessarily after the stereotypical woman... I dont think it would have bothered me much either if he'd ended up with Anna either, but only if they'd written Julia completely off the show. I think...  I've gone back and forth on who is at fault for season 4, and ultimately, they're both to blame. His stubbornness to sacrifice Julia to maintain his word as a gentleman or refusing to man up and go to Buffalo and at least demand closure to the relationship are both at fault. Julia can see he struggles, knows he's trying to honor her decision as a man of honor, and does nothing. But, she left before she could be rejected at the end of season three, and her insecurities are at play here. Also, she's got her own word to adhere to as she's already agreed to marry Darcy. She does do an incredibly brave thing by putting herself out there at the end of 413, but alas, too little too late. I can't rewatch season 4 because it's maximum angst with no benefit. I don't like angst for angst's sake. It's gratuitous, IMO. I think PM had an excellent point a few weeks ago when he stated that he inherited a mess when he took over at the beginning at season 5; I agree that he did. Whoever was show running in season 4 seems to have been bitter and possibly knew they were being replaced and was trying to ruin the show. William isn't your stereotypical Victorian man though and as you said he wasn't after the stereotypical woman. I think it would have been better if he had married Anna to leave Julia in the show as the one with all the angst. Yes, they're both at fault. Julia for presuming she knew best. William for not answering when he should and then not getting on the next train. I'm not so sure Julia does know he's trying to honour her decision until Ruby tells her. Good old Ruby was trying to do her best to get them back together before the disaster that was about to come but Julia was being pig headed until she had it spelled out to her. Then instead of ignoring Insp. Giles and going to see William she writes him a letter in the hope it will get to him in time. <shakes head> I'm not so sure he did sacrifice her to his word to Darcy. He sacrificed her to his desire to do the right thing for Constance Gardiner because he felt it was his fault she was in that situation. I watch MiW all the time, it's my favourite ep from S4 and in my top ten of all eps. Love the angst!  PM was sure thrown in at the deep end and it was brave of him to come in when the show had been left in such a mess. I think S5 was a pretty good season overall given that there really wasn't much W/J. There were many good eps and the ones where Julia made an appearance were really good. I have to admit that I didn't like Twentieth Century Murdoch the first time I saw it but it's really grown on me these last few months. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:59:07 GMT
I think it would have been better if he had married Anna to leave Julia in the show as the one with all the angst. He sacrificed her to his desire to do the right thing for Constance Gardiner because he felt it was his fault she was in that situation. I watch MiW all the time, it's my favourite ep from S4 and in my top ten of all eps. Love the angst! Wow, now that's a different take! As interesting as that is for a thought a thought experiment (lol, "Wanna"), I can't see it: Anna is an adventurous fling, but I don't think she has the intellectual dimension to engage William. ITA that William would not have stood on his word to Darcy - that was just an excuse he could make to himself. I believe that the William's decision was not just about Constance Gardiner but also his encounter with Lamb - and he felt Julia was better off with Darcy. Also he PLANNED to free Constance and did not expect to get that letter from Julia. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 9:15:57 GMT
I think it would have been better if he had married Anna to leave Julia in the show as the one with all the angst. He sacrificed her to his desire to do the right thing for Constance Gardiner because he felt it was his fault she was in that situation. I watch MiW all the time, it's my favourite ep from S4 and in my top ten of all eps. Love the angst! Wow, now that's a different take! As interesting as that is for a thought a thought experiment (lol, "Wanna"), I can't see it: Anna is an adventurous fling, but I don't think she has the intellectual dimension to engage William. ITA that William would not have stood on his word to Darcy - that was just an excuse he could make to himself. I believe that the William's decision was not just about Constance Gardiner but also his encounter with Lamb - and he felt Julia was better off with Darcy. Also he PLANNED to free Constance and did not expect to get that letter from Julia. I'm not saying I think he should have married Anna, just that if he had then Julia should have still been in the show. Fallenbelle thought she could only see W/A married if Julia left. I don't think Lamb had anything to do with his decision. The only thing Lamb did was make him realize that he should have said something when Julia said she couldn't have children. He physically sagged when he heard Lamb say had done the same thing and lost his fiancee. He did plan on freeing Constance, he told George he had something to do before going to the wedding. Julia's letter came as surprise but he still chose to release Constance and told her she'd never know what it had cost him, i.e. Julia. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Apr 26, 2015 10:41:06 GMT
I've gone back and forth on who is at fault for season 4, and ultimately, they're both to blame. His stubbornness to sacrifice Julia to maintain his word as a gentleman or refusing to man up and go to Buffalo and at least demand closure to the relationship are both at fault. Julia can see he struggles, knows he's trying to honor her decision as a man of honor, and does nothing. But, she left before she could be rejected at the end of season three, and her insecurities are at play here. Also, she's got her own word to adhere to as she's already agreed to marry Darcy. She does do an incredibly brave thing by putting herself out there at the end of 413, but alas, too little too late. I can't rewatch season 4 because it's maximum angst with no benefit. I don't like angst for angst's sake. It's gratuitous, IMO. I think PM had an excellent point a few weeks ago when he stated that he inherited a mess when he took over at the beginning at season 5; I agree that he did. Whoever was show running in season 4 seems to have been bitter and possibly knew they were being replaced and was trying to ruin the show. I have to dissent - I'm a big heretic in that I love Season 4 (at least since I knew in advance everything would work out for the better). I don't think it's angst for angst sake. Even though Julia was engaged to Darcy, many episodes paved the way for the idea that both she and William had made mistakes and now they had an insurmountable problem to deal with. The fact the Darcy marriage actually happened after all that was an incredible surprise twist - the last thing fans thought would happen! And that ending was decided after the hand-over to CBC had already been decided. PM may have been handed a challenge with the Darcy marriage, but the reality was it delayed the Jilliam marriage a few more seasons and gave them an interesting plot point to work with (Catholic view of divorce). Some of my favorite eps are in Season 4. Buffalo Shuffle, Monsieur Murdoch, Dead End Street, Bloodlust, The Kissing Bandit, Murdoch in Wonderland...I've watched those half a dozen times whereas I'm only going through Season 8 for a 2nd time to watch with my friend eclair. YB really pulls out the "constrained emotion" in Season 4, and I love it! But that's just it-they didn't move to CBC until season 6, and the show was on shaky ground renewal wise-why else would two endings be shot for season's 3 and 4. Season 4 is just angst for angst sake, and I don't find the pointless suffering of others particularly entertaining-and that's what season 4 is to me. I much prefer season 5, and have rewatched it a couple of times. Despite the lack of Julia, I quite like Invention Convention. It's a shame that season 4 is so unrewatchable for me, because there are some great eps, but I just can't take it. I like William, and season 4 is unnecessary whumping. Season 5 is preferable because the show isn't actually trying to destroy William. Imagine if season 4 had been the final episode...that would have been a horrible ending to the series IMO. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Apr 26, 2015 11:02:29 GMT
But I think Enid was perusing him. He was still reeling after Julia, and all of a sudden a woman starts pursuing him with pies and invitations of home cooked meals-the stereotypical way to a single Victorian man's heart. But William wasn't necessarily after the stereotypical woman... I dont think it would have bothered me much either if he'd ended up with Anna either, but only if they'd written Julia completely off the show. I think... I've gone back and forth on who is at fault for season 4, and ultimately, they're both to blame. His stubbornness to sacrifice Julia to maintain his word as a gentleman or refusing to man up and go to Buffalo and at least demand closure to the relationship are both at fault. Julia can see he struggles, knows he's trying to honor her decision as a man of honor, and does nothing. But, she left before she could be rejected at the end of season three, and her insecurities are at play here. Also, she's got her own word to adhere to as she's already agreed to marry Darcy. She does do an incredibly brave thing by putting herself out there at the end of 413, but alas, too little too late. I can't rewatch season 4 because it's maximum angst with no benefit. I don't like angst for angst's sake. It's gratuitous, IMO. I think PM had an excellent point a few weeks ago when he stated that he inherited a mess when he took over at the beginning at season 5; I agree that he did. Whoever was show running in season 4 seems to have been bitter and possibly knew they were being replaced and was trying to ruin the show. William isn't your stereotypical Victorian man though and as you said he wasn't after the stereotypical woman. I think it would have been better if he had married Anna to leave Julia in the show as the one with all the angst. Yes, they're both at fault. Julia for presuming she knew best. William for not answering when he should and then not getting on the next train. I'm not so sure Julia does know he's trying to honour her decision until Ruby tells her. Good old Ruby was trying to do her best to get them back together before the disaster that was about to come but Julia was being pig headed until she had it spelled out to her. Then instead of ignoring Insp. Giles and going to see William she writes him a letter in the hope it will get to him in time. <shakes head> I'm not so sure he did sacrifice her to his word to Darcy. He sacrificed her to his desire to do the right thing for Constance Gardiner because he felt it was his fault she was in that situation. I watch MiW all the time, it's my favourite ep from S4 and in my top ten of all eps. Love the angst! PM was sure thrown in at the deep end and it was brave of him to come in when the show had been left in such a mess. I think S5 was a pretty good season overall given that there really wasn't much W/J. There were many good eps and the ones where Julia made an appearance were really good. I have to admit that I didn't like Twentieth Century Murdoch the first time I saw it but it's really grown on me these last few months. No, he's definitely not the stereotypical man-which is why he's so intriguing! It could have been interesting if he'd married Anna-and that possibly could have happened in season 5, and seeing Julia have some angst would have been a nice change, but PM ships Jilliam, and he did "right the ship" by the end of the season.  |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 17:13:47 GMT
No, he's definitely not the stereotypical man-which is why he's so intriguing! It could have been interesting if he'd married Anna-and that possibly could have happened in season 5, and seeing Julia have some angst would have been a nice change, but PM ships Jilliam, and he did "right the ship" by the end of the season. Unfortunately he almost sank the ship in S8. Hopefully he'll put that right in S9. I have a bit more faith now we've heard from him. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 19:36:20 GMT
Julia's letter came as surprise but he still chose to release Constance and told her she'd never know what it had cost him, i.e. Julia. He had to make that decision under last minute pressure, though. If he had more time, he might have even come up with a different plan for Constance. But because he didn't get Julia's letter until right before the wedding, his choices were pretty stark, and he couldn't fail to rectify his previous mistakes (this is where I think his previous interaction with Lamb and his knowledge of Lamb's descent into a sort of madness came in). There was also a previous good discussion with Fallenbelle about William was probably doing penance by deliberately depriving himself of Julia - I also think that's the sort of thing that would have only occurred on a passing extreme thought, while William was under duress. Dang, we really lacked this kind of duress in Season 8! |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 19:45:49 GMT
But that's just it-they didn't move to CBC until season 6, and the show was on shaky ground renewal wise-why else would two endings be shot for season's 3 and 4. Season 4 is just angst for angst sake, and I don't find the pointless suffering of others particularly entertaining-and that's what season 4 is to me. I much prefer season 5, and have rewatched it a couple of times. Despite the lack of Julia, I quite like Invention Convention. It's a shame that season 4 is so unrewatchable for me, because there are some great eps, but I just can't take it. I like William, and season 4 is unnecessary whumping. Season 5 is preferable because the show isn't actually trying to destroy William. Imagine if season 4 had been the final episode...that would have been a horrible ending to the series IMO. I thought the deal was made to move to CBC at the end of Season 4, but it remained on City for a year while negotiations were taking place, or something hinky like that? The "alternative ending" is so abrupt I've never bought it as an alternative ending: I think it was filmed as a form of fan reassurance to leak and let people know they wouldn't have just ended things on Julia's wedding. And it's a bit of fan bling for the DVDs that seem to have sold pretty well. The suffering of Season 4 isn't pointless at all. Some of the best acting in the series is in Season 4. Perhaps events are trying to destroy William, but it also laid on the table all the issues he needed to reconcile with himself before he could be a whole man for Julia. And perhaps Julia needed to get over "old maid syndrome" before she could be a whole woman for William. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 19:59:02 GMT
No, he's definitely not the stereotypical man-which is why he's so intriguing! It could have been interesting if he'd married Anna-and that possibly could have happened in season 5, and seeing Julia have some angst would have been a nice change, but PM ships Jilliam, and he did "right the ship" by the end of the season. Unfortunately he almost sank the ship in S8. Hopefully he'll put that right in S9. I have a bit more faith now we've heard from him. LOL, these ship metaphors are reminding me of The X-Files, which had plot holes so large, a space ship could fly through them!  |
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