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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 4:30:39 GMT
I'm currently re-watching Season 8 with eclair right now, and I've noticed a sort of running theme earlier in the season with women flirting with the already taken William. First the Harbor Master tries to grab William while he's "dallying". Then the prostitute wants a "private interview" with William in Glory Days. Then Miss Ruby openly flirts with William (and attack hugs him) in The Murdoch Appreciation Society. This is all the episodes we've viewed so far, but from memory, Dr. Bajjali tries to re-kindle some of the old sparks when she gets to dine alone with William in The Temple of Death, and of course later Eva will kiss William and play on Julia's insecurities.
All of this flirtation would be very interesting if it were part of an over-all emotional or character development plot arc that led somewhere. But as far as I can tell these were all just random moments that happened for no discernible reason other than to perhaps show that William was hot (even after marriage), but self-effacingly never realized it. (Unlike that gauche American Bat Masterson in Glory Days who slung his Gun That Tamed the West right in front of his crotch).
Well that's seriously under-utilizing a character/plot asset - especially if they knew they had Eva coming up as an ongoing Nemesis.
The failure to treat these separate incidents as a theme is also a failure to realize it ties into other major character themes (whether they were intended or not): Julia's absence/distance and the fact William is a kept man in that hotel room after making a big deal about him avoiding buying a house and being ultra-cheap (re: not tipping, frugal on investments). The writers have, for whatever their reasons, made it canon that William gets propositioned on a regular basis. That's going to affect his marriage somehow. Tough cookies, it just is. Eva is probably the best way to use that information, but it's best to play the long game and lead up to Eva with a growth of tensions over the subject. Right now all we have are these separate incidents and no character consequences: Julia hasn't even noticed as far as we know. Can you imagine how much devastating Eva's knife-twist about William's loyalty would have been IF Julia had previously started to wonder about the stability of their marriage? The failure of foresight is pathetic when the material was obviously THERE, and each episode just seems to be lurching with B-storyline baggage.
In conclusion, I'd like to put the question out there: does anyone else wonder whether these "flirtations" were originally meant to be part of a William arc (perhaps relating to Eva) but the planning across all the different directors just proved to be too difficult?
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 6:19:21 GMT
I'm currently re-watching Season 8 with eclair right now, and I've noticed a sort of running theme earlier in the season with women flirting with the already taken William. First the Harbor Master tries to grab William while he's "dallying". Then the prostitute wants a "private interview" with William in Glory Days. Then Miss Ruby openly flirts with William (and attack hugs him) in The Murdoch Appreciation Society. This is all the episodes we've viewed so far, but from memory, Dr. Bajjali tries to re-kindle some of the old sparks when she gets to dine alone with William in The Temple of Death, and of course later Eva will kiss William and play on Julia's insecurities. All of this flirtation would be very interesting if it were part of an over-all emotional or character development plot arc that led somewhere. But as far as I can tell these were all just random moments that happened for no discernible reason other than to perhaps show that William was hot (even after marriage), but self-effacingly never realized it. (Unlike that gauche American Bat Masterson in Glory Days who slung his Gun That Tamed the West right in front of his crotch). Well that's seriously under-utilizing a character/plot asset - especially if they knew they had Eva coming up as an ongoing Nemesis. The failure to treat these separate incidents as a theme is also a failure to realize it ties into other major character themes (whether they were intended or not): Julia's absence/distance and the fact William is a kept man in that hotel room after making a big deal about him avoiding buying a house and being ultra-cheap (re: not tipping, frugal on investments). The writers have, for whatever their reasons, made it canon that William gets propositioned on a regular basis. That's going to affect his marriage somehow. Tough cookies, it just is. Eva is probably the best way to use that information, but it's best to play the long game and lead up to Eva with a growth of tensions over the subject. Right now all we have are these separate incidents and no character consequences: Julia hasn't even noticed as far as we know. Can you imagine how much devastating Eva's knife-twist about William's loyalty would have been IF Julia had previously started to wonder about the stability of their marriage? The failure of foresight is pathetic when the material was obviously THERE, and each episode just seems to be lurching with B-storyline baggage. In conclusion, I'd like to put the question out there: does anyone else wonder whether these "flirtations" were originally meant to be part of a William arc (perhaps relating to Eva) but the planning across all the different directors just proved to be too difficult? Who knows what they were thinking in S8. Apparently not much if PM is to be believed. They obviously didn't see how Julia's storyline was too far detached from the rest of the stories or the fact that the marriage was being ignored. Perhaps it was coincidence that many women flirted with William this season. I think they missed the boat in the previous seasons with that. Here was a good looking, intelligent BACHELOR that wasn't even courting for 4 of the previous seasons and although women went through the eps none of them seriously hit on him other than Sally Pendrick. I don't consider that Eva Pearce hit on him, she was trying to manipulate him for her own purpose. Anna Fulford didn't hit on him either, she didn't need to. Talking of Anna, I saw TMI again tonight and I noticed for the first time (not sure why I never noticed before) William closed his eyes when they hugged when he left. That suggests he really did have feelings for her. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Apr 26, 2015 7:23:27 GMT
I'm currently re-watching Season 8 with eclair right now, and I've noticed a sort of running theme earlier in the season with women flirting with the already taken William. First the Harbor Master tries to grab William while he's "dallying". Then the prostitute wants a "private interview" with William in Glory Days. Then Miss Ruby openly flirts with William (and attack hugs him) in The Murdoch Appreciation Society. This is all the episodes we've viewed so far, but from memory, Dr. Bajjali tries to re-kindle some of the old sparks when she gets to dine alone with William in The Temple of Death, and of course later Eva will kiss William and play on Julia's insecurities. All of this flirtation would be very interesting if it were part of an over-all emotional or character development plot arc that led somewhere. But as far as I can tell these were all just random moments that happened for no discernible reason other than to perhaps show that William was hot (even after marriage), but self-effacingly never realized it. (Unlike that gauche American Bat Masterson in Glory Days who slung his Gun That Tamed the West right in front of his crotch). Well that's seriously under-utilizing a character/plot asset - especially if they knew they had Eva coming up as an ongoing Nemesis. The failure to treat these separate incidents as a theme is also a failure to realize it ties into other major character themes (whether they were intended or not): Julia's absence/distance and the fact William is a kept man in that hotel room after making a big deal about him avoiding buying a house and being ultra-cheap (re: not tipping, frugal on investments). The writers have, for whatever their reasons, made it canon that William gets propositioned on a regular basis. That's going to affect his marriage somehow. Tough cookies, it just is. Eva is probably the best way to use that information, but it's best to play the long game and lead up to Eva with a growth of tensions over the subject. Right now all we have are these separate incidents and no character consequences: Julia hasn't even noticed as far as we know. Can you imagine how much devastating Eva's knife-twist about William's loyalty would have been IF Julia had previously started to wonder about the stability of their marriage? The failure of foresight is pathetic when the material was obviously THERE, and each episode just seems to be lurching with B-storyline baggage. In conclusion, I'd like to put the question out there: does anyone else wonder whether these "flirtations" were originally meant to be part of a William arc (perhaps relating to Eva) but the planning across all the different directors just proved to be too difficult? Who knows what they were thinking in S8. Apparently not much if PM is to be believed. They obviously didn't see how Julia's storyline was too far detached from the rest of the stories or the fact that the marriage was being ignored. Perhaps it was coincidence that many women flirted with William this season. I think they missed the boat in the previous seasons with that. Here was a good looking, intelligent BACHELOR that wasn't even courting for 4 of the previous seasons and although women went through the eps none of them seriously hit on him other than Sally Pendrick. I don't consider that Eva Pearce hit on him, she was trying to manipulate him for her own purpose. Anna Fulford didn't hit on him either, she didn't need to. Talking of Anna, I saw TMI again tonight and I noticed for the first time (not sure why I never noticed before) William closed his eyes when they hugged when he left. That suggests he really did have feelings for her. Excellent points made by the both of you. I think it should be part of a larger storyline, but who knows what the show was thinking? Maybe they were just going for one off moments of William squirming for awkward moments, or maybe this will build into season 9. Even if these were just meant to be awkward one offs, I do hope the show somehow utilizes them in season 9 as part of a larger character arc. I completely agree that the show could have done more with women playing upon William, but I would add Enid to that list. She certainly tried to make a play for William-I doubt that he would have been spending time with her if she hadn't been so aggressive. But, I do wonder if we'll see Anna again. William was attracted to her no doubt, and had she been able to stay in Toronto, I think he would have ended up with her. Yes, he was always going to love Julia, but I suspect he'll always carry a torch for Anna as well. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 7:33:44 GMT
Excellent points made by the both of you. I think it should be part of a larger storyline, but who knows what the show was thinking? Maybe they were just going for one off moments of William squirming for awkward moments, or maybe this will build into season 9. Even if these were just meant to be awkward one offs, I do hope the show somehow utilizes them in season 9 as part of a larger character arc. I completely agree that the show could have done more with women playing upon William, but I would add Enid to that list. She certainly tried to make a play for William-I doubt that he would have been spending time with her if she hadn't been so aggressive. But, I do wonder if we'll see Anna again. William was attracted to her no doubt, and had she been able to stay in Toronto, I think he would have ended up with her. Yes, he was always going to love Julia, but I suspect he'll always carry a torch for Anna as well. I considered adding Enid to the list but thought better of it. I don't consider her to have hit on William but once he showed interest in her she wasn't going to turn him down. I also try to forget Enid! It wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if he had ended up with Anna. Julia deserved to lose him forever for being so sure she knew what was best for him. I can't believe she didn't see how he felt for her all through S4 to have to write him a letter to ask if he still felt the same. What did she think she was reading in his face every time she saw him?? |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 7:39:41 GMT
Who knows what they were thinking in S8. Apparently not much if PM is to be believed. They obviously didn't see how Julia's storyline was too far detached from the rest of the stories or the fact that the marriage was being ignored. Perhaps it was coincidence that many women flirted with William this season. I think they missed the boat in the previous seasons with that. Here was a good looking, intelligent BACHELOR that wasn't even courting for 4 of the previous seasons and although women went through the eps none of them seriously hit on him other than Sally Pendrick. I don't consider that Eva Pearce hit on him, she was trying to manipulate him for her own purpose. Anna Fulford didn't hit on him either, she didn't need to. Talking of Anna, I saw TMI again tonight and I noticed for the first time (not sure why I never noticed before) William closed his eyes when they hugged when he left. That suggests he really did have feelings for her. Yes that's why it was really striking: it was only AFTER William was engaged/married that a barrage of women hit on him. That's why it seemed like this might actually be some specific plot development that would lead somewhere. But ultimately it was a loose thread because they didn't tie in Julia's insecurities and exploit this for Eva plot. ITA William (not just "out of William experience" William) did have feelings for Anna and may have slept with her in Walk on the Wild Side. She encouraged him to break certain taboos. But that heart space was already "reserved" for Julia, so he could never fully fall in love with Anna. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 7:44:25 GMT
Yes that's why it was really striking: it was only AFTER William was engaged/married that a barrage of women hit on him. That's why it seemed like this might actually be some specific plot development that would lead somewhere. But ultimately it was a loose thread because they didn't tie in Julia's insecurities and exploit this for Eva plot. ITA William (not just "out of William experience" William) did have feelings for Anna and may have slept with her in Walk on the Wild Side. She encouraged him to break certain taboos. But that heart space was already "reserved" for Julia, so he could never fully fall in love with Anna. Perhaps it's me just being obtuse but I don't see Julia having any insecurities where William and other women are concerned. The only insecurity she's ever had with him is about her not being able to have children. She knows that isn't an issue for him now. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 7:50:32 GMT
Maybe they were just going for one off moments of William squirming for awkward moments, or maybe this will build into season 9. Even if these were just meant to be awkward one offs, I do hope the show somehow utilizes them in season 9 as part of a larger character arc. I completely agree that the show could have done more with women playing upon William, but I would add Enid to that list. She certainly tried to make a play for William-I doubt that he would have been spending time with her if she hadn't been so aggressive. But, I do wonder if we'll see Anna again. William was attracted to her no doubt, and had she been able to stay in Toronto, I think he would have ended up with her. Yes, he was always going to love Julia, but I suspect he'll always carry a torch for Anna as well. To me "awkward one offs" are almost the same as fan service - perhaps they are fan service for people who like slapstick gags. In rewatching Season 8 I noticed a number of bits that were supposed to be gags but didn't quite end right - like the bit about William making a joke about George going to medical school. That could have been funny, but there was something flat about the denouement. I also felt that bits like that were being plugged in. While I think William had a genuine thing for Anna, I don't think he carries a torch for her. I do think he'd worry about her and help her if she were in trouble, but he'd remain loyal to Julia. However, Julia might be paranoid about here. And that's the sort of thing that the writers should hint at. (Instead of leaving Julia conveniently offstage while a stream of women randomly flirt with William, leading to ABSLOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES for a married man!!!) |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 7:53:17 GMT
Perhaps it's me just being obtuse but I don't see Julia having any insecurities where William and other women are concerned. The only insecurity she's ever had with him is about her not being able to have children. She knows that isn't an issue for him now. Julia doesn't have any surface insecurities (she was quite amused by all the attention William got in The Murdoch Appreciation Society), but Eva did choose to needle her on that point. And Eva would be a lot more effective as a villain if Julia did have those insecurities (resulting from tensions over her inability to have children, William's unhappiness at living in the hotel, etc.) but has been denying them even to herself all this time. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:00:01 GMT
Perhaps it's me just being obtuse but I don't see Julia having any insecurities where William and other women are concerned. The only insecurity she's ever had with him is about her not being able to have children. She knows that isn't an issue for him now. Julia doesn't have any surface insecurities (she was quite amused by all the attention William got in The Murdoch Appreciation Society), but Eva did choose to needle her on that point. And Eva would be a lot more effective as a villain if Julia did have those insecurities (resulting from tensions over her inability to have children, William's unhappiness at living in the hotel, etc.) but has been denying them even to herself all this time. Julia didn't seem concerned about Eva when she said and I'm paraphrasing "or she'll find you." In TI William showed that Eva didn't get to him any more. He's dealt with her twice before and had her number in this ep. Julia had nothing to worry about. Whilst it may be more effective for Julia to have insecurities about other women they can't just conjure them up now just for a plot device. It would seem very incongruous for her to suddenly have insecurities about other women. Let's face it Julia knows she's got him hook, line and sinker even if other women do look at him and we know he's got an eye for the ladies but he's never really acted on it. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:00:57 GMT
I considered adding Enid to the list but thought better of it. I don't consider her to have hit on William but once he showed interest in her she wasn't going to turn him down. I also try to forget Enid! It wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if he had ended up with Anna. Julia deserved to lose him forever for being so sure she knew what was best for him. I can't believe she didn't see how he felt for her all through S4 to have to write him a letter to ask if he still felt the same. What did she think she was reading in his face every time she saw him?? There is also Dr. Bajjali in Season 5. But before Season 8 the circumstances are quite different. The entire time William is trying to define his relationship with Julia, and that relationship is always in flux. During season 8, William's relationship with Julia IS defined: he's engaged and then he's married. The string of flirting women mean something completely different if William is officially no longer available. Dr. Bajjali was actually on Julia's turf, having dinner in William and Julia's home. I think that would be throwing down the gloves for a catfight in early 20th century terms even if William did "explain". It wasn't proper for him to dine alone with an unattached woman in the domestic inner sanctum. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:03:55 GMT
Julia didn't seem concerned about Eva when she said and I'm paraphrasing "or she'll find you." In TI William showed that Eva didn't get to him any more. He's dealt with her twice before and had her number in this ep. Julia had nothing to worry about. Whilst it may be more effective for Julia to have insecurities about other women they can't just conjure them up now just for a plot device. It would seem very incongruous for her to suddenly have insecurities about other women. Let's face it Julia knows she's got him hook, line and sinker even if other women do look at him and we know he's got an eye for the ladies but he's never really acted on it. If Julia has no insecurities that Eva could exploit, that makes her completely powerless (and boring) as a Super Villain. William has already proven to be immune to her direct charms, so the only way she could hurt him is by driving a wedge between him and Julia. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:09:29 GMT
Dr. Bajjali was actually on Julia's turf, having dinner in William and Julia's home. I think that would be throwing down the gloves for a catfight in early 20th century terms even if William did "explain". It wasn't proper for him to dine alone with an unattached woman in the domestic inner sanctum. And that's why he was so uncomfortable, he knew he'd screwed up. If Julia had been there as he'd expected things would probably have been fine. |
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Post by Hodge on Apr 26, 2015 8:12:00 GMT
Julia didn't seem concerned about Eva when she said and I'm paraphrasing "or she'll find you." In TI William showed that Eva didn't get to him any more. He's dealt with her twice before and had her number in this ep. Julia had nothing to worry about. Whilst it may be more effective for Julia to have insecurities about other women they can't just conjure them up now just for a plot device. It would seem very incongruous for her to suddenly have insecurities about other women. Let's face it Julia knows she's got him hook, line and sinker even if other women do look at him and we know he's got an eye for the ladies but he's never really acted on it. If Julia has no insecurities that Eva could exploit, that makes her completely powerless (and boring) as a Super Villain. William has already proven to be immune to her direct charms, so the only way she could hurt him is by driving a wedge between him and Julia. But if he's wise to her and Julia is obviously wise to her, she was the one pointing out how she manipulated men in the first place, how is Eva going to drive a wedge between them? I'm sure that's the way they'll probably play it when Eva does come back but I really don't see it ... at the moment. Unless when she does come back she is completely powerless and that becomes her downfall. |
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Post by snacky on Apr 26, 2015 8:17:11 GMT
Dr. Bajjali was actually on Julia's turf, having dinner in William and Julia's home. I think that would be throwing down the gloves for a catfight in early 20th century terms even if William did "explain". It wasn't proper for him to dine alone with an unattached woman in the domestic inner sanctum. And that's why he was so uncomfortable, he knew he'd screwed up. If Julia had been there as he'd expected things would probably have been fine. Yes, the problem was the writers didn't follow through with any ramifications of that screw up!  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Apr 26, 2015 8:18:40 GMT
Excellent points made by the both of you. I think it should be part of a larger storyline, but who knows what the show was thinking? Maybe they were just going for one off moments of William squirming for awkward moments, or maybe this will build into season 9. Even if these were just meant to be awkward one offs, I do hope the show somehow utilizes them in season 9 as part of a larger character arc. I completely agree that the show could have done more with women playing upon William, but I would add Enid to that list. She certainly tried to make a play for William-I doubt that he would have been spending time with her if she hadn't been so aggressive. But, I do wonder if we'll see Anna again. William was attracted to her no doubt, and had she been able to stay in Toronto, I think he would have ended up with her. Yes, he was always going to love Julia, but I suspect he'll always carry a torch for Anna as well. I considered adding Enid to the list but thought better of it. I don't consider her to have hit on William but once he showed interest in her she wasn't going to turn him down. I also try to forget Enid! It wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if he had ended up with Anna. Julia deserved to lose him forever for being so sure she knew what was best for him. I can't believe she didn't see how he felt for her all through S4 to have to write him a letter to ask if he still felt the same. What did she think she was reading in his face every time she saw him?? But I think Enid was perusing him. He was still reeling after Julia, and all of a sudden a woman starts pursuing him with pies and invitations of home cooked meals-the stereotypical way to a single Victorian man's heart. But William wasn't necessarily after the stereotypical woman... I dont think it would have bothered me much either if he'd ended up with Anna either, but only if they'd written Julia completely off the show. I think...  I've gone back and forth on who is at fault for season 4, and ultimately, they're both to blame. His stubbornness to sacrifice Julia to maintain his word as a gentleman or refusing to man up and go to Buffalo and at least demand closure to the relationship are both at fault. Julia can see he struggles, knows he's trying to honor her decision as a man of honor, and does nothing. But, she left before she could be rejected at the end of season three, and her insecurities are at play here. Also, she's got her own word to adhere to as she's already agreed to marry Darcy. She does do an incredibly brave thing by putting herself out there at the end of 413, but alas, too little too late. I can't rewatch season 4 because it's maximum angst with no benefit. I don't like angst for angst's sake. It's gratuitous, IMO. I think PM had an excellent point a few weeks ago when he stated that he inherited a mess when he took over at the beginning at season 5; I agree that he did. Whoever was show running in season 4 seems to have been bitter and possibly knew they were being replaced and was trying to ruin the show. |
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