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Post by murdochic on Oct 28, 2015 12:33:41 GMT
I had a feeling a scene was cut, it felt like more than one was cut in the episode which is probably why there is big plotholes. I wish MM would release deleted scenes, now knowing there's a missing W/J scene adds to my disappointment with the episode. I just hope the rest of S9 doesn't let us down and no more characters are treated so unfairly.
Emily, if you ever come back for a visit I hope you've got an entirely new love and you're happy. And for Lillian I feel such sympathy, she didn't deserve what happened to her. She died protecting Gladys and like her or not, she should have been allowed a life.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 13:45:28 GMT
If Daniel killed the PI, what was Lillian doing out at the murder scene? If she came back feeling relieved, she must have known there was no longer a threat of him exposing her past, and why did she ask her friend for the $400, if she wasn't being blackmailed or had to flee? She couldn't have witnessed Daniel murdering him, as then she would have known he was alive and an immediate threat. Remember, Lillian had already been involved in what she thought was the killing of Daniel, and wasn't exactly remorseful when she thought her brick through the window had killed the corset model......I think she had arranged to meet the PI, there was a struggle and she hit him with a rock...... From FB, Jordan Christianson writes: I think it's important to get it out there that Lillian did not kill the PI. Joe Holler, the husband that survived the boat incident did. Nicholas Horsely hired the PI to track down Helen Walker (aka Lillian). In doing so the PI also discovered that Joe Holler was alive. Instead of reporting back to Horsely, the PI attempted to independently blackmail Helen and Joe Holler to keep the secret of their new identities, hence Lillian needing $400 from her "uncle". But when Lillian went to chartwell pond to pay up, the PI never showed because he had already been killed by Joe Holler. A scene at the end between Murdoch and Ogden explained this, but was cut for time. Cheers So...what I originally assumed was correct and everyone didn't have to go watching this ep five times. But uh, the rest of this explanation is helpful. And good on those who sussed out a missing scene. Kind of weird to cut out the 'full' explanation to the murder mystery...like it wasn't actually important what really happened (when it was) and we were only supposed to care about Emily leaving.
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Post by lizmc on Oct 28, 2015 13:55:42 GMT
If Daniel killed the PI, what was Lillian doing out at the murder scene? If she came back feeling relieved, she must have known there was no longer a threat of him exposing her past, and why did she ask her friend for the $400, if she wasn't being blackmailed or had to flee? She couldn't have witnessed Daniel murdering him, as then she would have known he was alive and an immediate threat. Remember, Lillian had already been involved in what she thought was the killing of Daniel, and wasn't exactly remorseful when she thought her brick through the window had killed the corset model......I think she had arranged to meet the PI, there was a struggle and she hit him with a rock...... From FB, Jordan Christianson writes: I think it's important to get it out there that Lillian did not kill the PI. Joe Holler, the husband that survived the boat incident did. Nicholas Horsely hired the PI to track down Helen Walker (aka Lillian). In doing so the PI also discovered that Joe Holler was alive. Instead of reporting back to Horsely, the PI attempted to independently blackmail Helen and Joe Holler to keep the secret of their new identities, hence Lillian needing $400 from her "uncle". But when Lillian went to chartwell pond to pay up, the PI never showed because he had already been killed by Joe Holler. A scene at the end between Murdoch and Ogden explained this, but was cut for time. Cheers OK, that explains it....thanks.....I had the feeling a scene was missing.....
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Post by MelodyPond101 on Oct 28, 2015 14:14:52 GMT
Storytelling naturally is important. But it's also important to examine the implications of where the story goes, and why it might be sending a bad message. I don't necessarily agree with throwing all that out of the window because you 'can't concern yourself with it'. I'm aware that the time period in which MM is set was not the greatest for gay people, but honestly, it's already been a little romanticized/lightened up in a lot of ways (not a complaint- I like Murdoch Mysteries the way it is). Why not for gay people too? MM is a TV show, they don't have to examine any implications of any story, it's not their mandate to send messages good or bad. Their raison d'etre is to entertain, if they managed to do that they've done their job. I could debunk any criticism or discussion on this board with 'stop thinking so deeply, it's just entertainment!'. I could dismiss my thoughts on bad messages and good messages and themes and character development because the show's 'only job is to provide some measure of entertainment'. But if I just wanted to take the show at face value and watch without thinking about it, I wouldn't be commenting on this board. I honestly believe that shows like Murdoch Mysteries do have a measure of social responsibility. The show doesn't exist in a bubble. Sometimes, like with Lillian's death, they choose to create entertainment in ways that make me uneasy. And that's fine, no show is perfect, but I'm absolutely going to talk about things that I think are harmful or upsetting, or simple criticisms. I think referring to it as just a show that doesn't need to do anything but provide baseline entertainment ignores the little things that make Murdoch great. Not to mention, themes and messages are an essential part of storytelling- they're definitely the writers' job.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 14:26:11 GMT
MM is a TV show, they don't have to examine any implications of any story, it's not their mandate to send messages good or bad. Their raison d'etre is to entertain, if they managed to do that they've done their job. I could debunk any criticism or discussion on this board with 'stop thinking so deeply, it's just entertainment!'. I could dismiss my thoughts on bad messages and good messages and themes and character development because the show's 'only job is to provide some measure of entertainment'. But if I just wanted to take the show at face value and watch without thinking about it, I wouldn't be commenting on this board. I honestly believe that shows like Murdoch Mysteries do have a measure of social responsibility. The show doesn't exist in a bubble. Sometimes, like with Lillian's death, they choose to create entertainment in ways that make me uneasy. And that's fine, no show is perfect, but I'm absolutely going to talk about things that I think are harmful or upsetting, or simple criticisms. I think referring to it as just a show that doesn't need to do anything but provide baseline entertainment ignores the little things that make Murdoch great. Not to mention, themes and messages are an essential part of storytelling- they're definitely the writers' job. Yeah, and if I recall correctly, there was even a story on twitter about a young girl who came out to her father after she saw the episode where Emily decided to follow her heart and pursue Lillian. And CBCMurdoch was all heart warmed by the impact they were having, and they (and Yannick?) talked about social responsibility to some degree. So now what they've done is basically shit all over that and said if you follow this path too, it'll probably end badly. You'll probably be miserable. Better stay on the straight and narrow.
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Post by MelodyPond101 on Oct 28, 2015 14:39:15 GMT
Yup. You can't beam with pride and take credit for your social progressiveness when people are inspired and happy, and then drop all responsibility when people complain about the stereotype-y path you've taken.
Not to mention, our other lgbt woman is gone now. (I'm assuming Emily is bisexual? Her relationship with George was weird, but I always figured her crush on Leslie was legit).
Anyway, the only f/f relationship was split up- one party is dead, and the other's off the show. I mean, obviously the writers didn't have anything to do with Georgina deciding to leave, but they did write her exit, as well as her and Lillian's fates. I agree that Lillian didn't have to die, and I just think they could have done better. So much better.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 14:41:47 GMT
From FB, Jordan Christianson writes: I think it's important to get it out there that Lillian did not kill the PI. Joe Holler, the husband that survived the boat incident did. Nicholas Horsely hired the PI to track down Helen Walker (aka Lillian). In doing so the PI also discovered that Joe Holler was alive. Instead of reporting back to Horsely, the PI attempted to independently blackmail Helen and Joe Holler to keep the secret of their new identities, hence Lillian needing $400 from her "uncle". But when Lillian went to chartwell pond to pay up, the PI never showed because he had already been killed by Joe Holler. A scene at the end between Murdoch and Ogden explained this, but was cut for time. Cheers OK, that explains it....thanks.....I had the feeling a scene was missing..... Except, this still doesn't make 100% sense to me now that I think about it some more. What did Lillian THINK happened to the PI? She had no confirmation that he was dead. Wouldn't she have wondered WHY he didn't show? And if she had no reason to suspect foul play because Joe was dead, and just assumed some other business held him up so he couldn't make their rendezvous, wouldn't she have been worried the PI would show up again (perhaps demanding a significantly larger sum)? So why would she have relaxed and stopped pressuring Emily to go to England? Hmm, well, she kept the 400 instead of returning it, which implies she WAS expecting him to show up again...and again doesn't explain why Lillian would have calmed down so that Emily wouldn't have questioned her about her strange behaviour.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 15:10:56 GMT
Yup. You can't beam with pride and take credit for your social progressiveness when people are inspired and happy, and then drop all responsibility when people complain about the stereotype-y path you've taken. Not to mention, our other lgbt woman is gone now. (I'm assuming Emily is bisexual? Her relationship with George was weird, but I always figured her crush on Leslie was legit). Anyway, the only f/f relationship was split up- one party is dead, and the other's off the show. I mean, obviously the writers didn't have anything to do with Georgina deciding to leave, but they did write her exit, as well as her and Lillian's fates. I agree that Lillian didn't have to die, and I just think they could have done better. So much better. Pretty sure she was bisexual. One of the writers said Emily's past relationships weren't lessened now that she was with Lillian, which implies Emily had feelings for both George and Leslie. They probably didn't have a word for it back then...and since Julia and Emily never talked about it (another thing I'm a bit p i s s e d at), I don't know what word they would've used besides sapphist. (Side note: why is shit acceptable on this site but not p i s s e d?) Exactly. They were gonna get rid of their gay characters anyway. Killing Lillian just added insult to injury. I almost feel like it would've been better if they hadn't introduced this relationship into the show. Now it really feels like they just did it to cause controversy and stir up views. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised they'd resort to stupid tactics. I mean, Gillies returned how many times? The question is, how much of Lillian's background did they know ahead of time? or better yet, WHEN was Lillian contrived as a character? Before or after Georgina decided to leave? Oh I know how they can fix this, the black lady they are introducing this season will be gay and will take over the coroner position too!
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Post by murdochic on Oct 28, 2015 15:29:36 GMT
It was obvious they didn't think up Lillian's exit inadvance, things didn't match what we knew about her and she wouldn't really be getting her picture in the newspapers if she had changed her name and feared for her life. It wasn't planned before S9.
I never really expected Emily/Lillian to last because f/f relationships rarely ever do on television, but I did expect MM to be less cliche and not kill Lillian off. I'm disheartened that they went that route as they'd already done similar in the past with the episode from S7 were the husband killed his wife's lover in Julia's clinic.
Rebecca can't be coroner. Now we've gotten Julia back in the morgue we'd like to keep her there until the show ends. Maybe in the last episode Rebecca could become the new coroner, or she can be appointed in another city.
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Post by snacky on Oct 28, 2015 15:33:56 GMT
So we've watched it twice more tonight-the last time looking specifically at the hubby and it's not overly clear, but we think it was he who killed the PI-he'd discovered that the supposedly dead hubby was still alive (as seen by George investigating the PI's files and seeing where the PI had discovered that hubby (Joe something) was alive and living under the alias Daniel Miles) and Joe/Daniel's comment to Gladys that he couldn't have anyone know he was still alive-this included Lillian. But..but...why did Lillian have the datebook entry for the lake where the PI died? And who hired the PI? The policeman knew: he thought there was only one body.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 15:36:51 GMT
It was obvious they didn't think up Lillian's exit inadvance, things didn't match what we knew about her and she wouldn't really be getting her picture in the newspapers if she had changed her name and feared for her life. It wasn't planned before S9. I never really expected Emily/Lillian to last because f/f relationships rarely ever do on television, but I did expect MM to be less cliche and not kill Lillian off. I'm disheartened that they went that route as they'd already done similar in the past with the episode from S7 were the husband killed his wife's lover in Julia's clinic. Oh yeah...good point. Wow, that's a really big plot hole then... I get that they probably didn't have a lot of time to chart a new path after Georgina said she was leaving, but they still could've handled it a lot better and for once not tried to go for the most dramatic ending possible.
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Post by snacky on Oct 28, 2015 15:40:50 GMT
If Daniel killed the PI, what was Lillian doing out at the murder scene? If she came back feeling relieved, she must have known there was no longer a threat of him exposing her past, and why did she ask her friend for the $400, if she wasn't being blackmailed or had to flee? She couldn't have witnessed Daniel murdering him, as then she would have known he was alive and an immediate threat. Remember, Lillian had already been involved in what she thought was the killing of Daniel, and wasn't exactly remorseful when she thought her brick through the window had killed the corset model......I think she had arranged to meet the PI, there was a struggle and she hit him with a rock...... From FB, Jordan Christianson writes: I think it's important to get it out there that Lillian did not kill the PI. Joe Holler, the husband that survived the boat incident did. Nicholas Horsely hired the PI to track down Helen Walker (aka Lillian). In doing so the PI also discovered that Joe Holler was alive. Instead of reporting back to Horsely, the PI attempted to independently blackmail Helen and Joe Holler to keep the secret of their new identities, hence Lillian needing $400 from her "uncle". But when Lillian went to chartwell pond to pay up, the PI never showed because he had already been killed by Joe Holler. A scene at the end between Murdoch and Ogden explained this, but was cut for time. Cheers That sort of thing needs to be explained in the script! So who did the policeman know was alive? Joe or Gladys? If he knew it was Gladys, why did he originally let her go?
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Post by snacky on Oct 28, 2015 15:43:09 GMT
It was obvious they didn't think up Lillian's exit inadvance, things didn't match what we knew about her and she wouldn't really be getting her picture in the newspapers if she had changed her name and feared for her life. It wasn't planned before S9. She was an outright rabble-rouser in the corset-free movement as well as the suffragettes. That was an extremely high profile life style.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 15:43:59 GMT
Rebecca can't be coroner. Now we've gotten Julia back in the morgue we'd like to keep her there until the show ends. Maybe in the last episode Rebecca could become the new coroner, or she can be appointed in another city. Oh I know she can't be...she's black. It was a joke. I'm one upping everything they've done so far. But uh, I don't think Julia's going to be coroner for more than a couple of episodes. I think they just did this as a throwback and to satisfy certain appetites for her return to the morgue. I.e. please the wistful fans, at least temporarily.
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Oct 28, 2015 15:51:02 GMT
It was obvious they didn't think up Lillian's exit inadvance, things didn't match what we knew about her and she wouldn't really be getting her picture in the newspapers if she had changed her name and feared for her life. It wasn't planned before S9. She was an outright rabble-rouser in the corset-free movement as well as the suffragettes. That was an extremely high profile life style. Which makes her secret past all the more hackneyed and annoying.
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