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Post by carco on Aug 9, 2014 22:28:59 GMT
I wasn't sure where to post this info on Protestant-Catholic relations in Toronto around 1900's (finally I found something specific!). I know we've had discussions about the upcoming (we hope!) mixed-marriage, etc. but I forgot where they are "hiding out". And since William is Catholic, this section seemed like as good a spot as any. So I found this paper Click here on-line. Normally it would be pretty dry reading but now I'm a William Murdoch fan it's a treasure trove of info regarding what someone like Murdoch would have been up against in 1900's Canada. As it relates to some of the storylines in MM the info on pages 18 & 19 and pages 26-29 in particular might be of some interest. There are comments on lumber camps, mixed marriages and how in places like Toronto it was problematic because people were mixing it up more (my words) meeting in places like "the workplace". Darned workplace romances! |
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 22:47:51 GMT
I wasn't sure where to post this info on Protestant-Catholic relations in Toronto around 1900's (finally I found something specific!). I know we've had discussions about the upcoming (we hope!) mixed-marriage, etc. but I forgot where they are "hiding out". And since William is Catholic, this section seemed like as good a spot as any. So I found this paper Click here on-line. Normally it would be pretty dry reading but now I'm a William Murdoch fan it's a treasure trove of info regarding what someone like Murdoch would have been up against in 1900's Canada. As it relates to some of the storylines in MM the info on pages 18 & 19 and pages 26-29 in particular might be of some interest. There are comments on lumber camps, mixed marriages and how in places like Toronto it was problematic because people were mixing it up more (my words) meeting in places like "the workplace". Darned workplace romances! Oh wow - cool! I bet academics would never imagine their papers being used this way.  Well here's my reading for the next half hour.  Hope it sheds some light on how William and Julia will get married!  |
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Post by snacky on Aug 9, 2014 23:48:30 GMT
Darned workplace romances! Well, well, well. I wonder how long William maintained his "horror of heresy" when he went out into the world! It sounds like certain Bishops in Toronto were very down on mixed marriages, and a lot of people were "marrying up" by marrying Protestants, and failing to keep their dispensation promise to raise the children Catholic. I do think William and Julia would have received some hassle if they went the Catholic route: would they have to approach the church of the husband for any particular reason? I do think Julia would raise a fuss if bossy men started laying down rules about how she should raise her children, even if in theory she can't have any. It would be a matter of principle for her. |
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Post by Hodge on Aug 9, 2014 23:56:40 GMT
Darned workplace romances! Well, well, well. I wonder how long William maintained his "horror of heresy" when he went out into the world! It sounds like certain Bishops in Toronto were very down on mixed marriages, and a lot of people were "marrying up" by marrying Protestants, and failing to keep their dispensation promise to raise the children Catholic. I do think William and Julia would have received some hassle if they went the Catholic route: would they have to approach the church of the husband for any particular reason? I do think Julia would raise a fuss if bossy men started laying down rules about how she should raise her children, even if in theory she can't have any. It would be a matter of principle for her. I've always wondered why everyone thinks they have to be married in a catholic church. William has said he'd stand by her if she divorced so he's already accepted it doesn't have to be a church wedding never mind a catholic one. Now Julia is widowed there's nothing stopping them marrying in a protestant church. Just a thought, if William marries a protestant in a protestant church maybe that's his way of breaking the glass ceiling. Not that I think he'd enjoy being an inspector, he likes solving puzzles too much. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 0:05:37 GMT
I've always wondered why everyone thinks they have to be married in a catholic church. William has said he'd stand by her if she divorced so he's already accepted it doesn't have to be a church wedding never mind a catholic one. Now Julia is widowed there's nothing stopping them marrying in a protestant church. I'm sure we've discussed that scenario as well. It's just been a while, and now I've forgotten. It's possible the issue was that the Protestant church would ask William to convert, wouldn't happen. Or perhaps they allowed Catholic wives, but not husbands. Anyway, at some point I started proposing traveling ministers of unusual denominations like the Unitarians. I'll have to go back and revisit the question as to why getting married in the main Protestant churches seemed like a problem. This book, which focuses on America, says that the Protestants focused on social pressure to discourage mixed marriages: books.google.com/books?id=xy2yCFBYJuwC&pg=PA48&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=falseA few months ago I did see a Canadian book similar to that one with an example of a French-Canadian man marrying a Protestant woman, but they were married in the Catholic church and she agreed to the Dispensation rules, if I remember correctly. I found this book with the Wedding rules William would have to follow on page 44! THE CORRECT THING FOR CATHOLICS (1891) |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 0:47:01 GMT
We've also been discussing the possibility of excommunication for William, especially if no dispensation is obtained. If he's not married by a Catholic priest is he married in Catholic eyes? There was a big scandal in 1870 on the Protestant side of that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelverton_caseAdditionally, there are penalties to being excluded from the religious community: whether you can be buried in the graveyard, etc. William, in early seasons, seemed fairly religious. He was going to mass. He was praying at night. He was going to church to ask God's help on major decisions. He hesitated over marrying a divorced woman. I don't think he will do anything that will get him excluded from the Catholic community. That might have been the problem of being married in a Protestant church. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 0:57:10 GMT
It is NOT the correct thing to: - Want to be married in other than the parish church simply because it is a more fashionable structure... (would this imply non-denominational settings for mixed marriages?) ...to omit various ceremonies that are specific to the Catholic Church (such as Mass) - To fail to secure the necessary dispensations in the case of mixed marriages. (I presume this applies even if they run across the street to the Protestant church). - For a woman to enter the church in a decollete gown! I've been thinking William and Julia could avoid stuff by going to a traveling Unitarian minister, engaging in some sort of civil ceremony, marrying at sea.... but now I realize they can't avoid anything. If they evade the rules of the Catholic Church, William will still have to pay the consequences. Julia respects William's faith, but how far will she go to accommodate the rules of his church? What will William risk in order to marry Julia? |
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Post by Hodge on Aug 10, 2014 1:29:55 GMT
It is NOT the correct thing to: - Want to be married in other than the parish church simply because it is a more fashionable structure... (would this imply non-denominational settings for mixed marriages?) ...to omit various ceremonies that are specific to the Catholic Church (such as Mass) - To fail to secure the necessary dispensations in the case of mixed marriages. (I presume this applies even if they run across the street to the Protestant church). - For a woman to enter the church in a decollete gown! I've been thinking William and Julia could avoid stuff by going to a traveling Unitarian minister, engaging in some sort of civil ceremony, marrying at sea.... but now I realize they can't avoid anything. If they evade the rules of the Catholic Church, William will still have to pay the consequences. Julia respects William's faith, but how far will she go to accommodate the rules of his church? What will William risk in order to marry Julia? William has already shown he's willing to go against the catholic church, and accept the consequences, when he said he'd marry Julia if she divorced. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 3:17:44 GMT
William has already shown he's willing to go against the catholic church, and accept the consequences, when he said he'd marry Julia if she divorced. William took that one risk, but he may expect Julia to make some concessions, too. I do think William is willing to accept excommunication to marry Julia...but will Julia make him do that if she realizes what the ramifications are? I don't think she realized that was what William was saying when he said he'd marry her even if she were divorced. She was probably thinking in terms of a crisis of faith, not the rift with the institution and social community. If he does get excommunicated, is Julia prepared to deal with the William that is coping with that? I'm actually a big fan of the excommunication story line, though I hope it comes from a case and a moral stand, not from wedding issues. However, there are people here on the forum who think that would be too dark/angsty for MM. Also, people of faith don't like to see breakage of faith on TV. There's a lot to consider. But I'd like to see MM go there. |
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Post by carco on Aug 10, 2014 3:38:15 GMT
Well here's my reading for the next half hour. Hope it sheds some light on how William and Julia will get married! In a nutshell (from the journal paper in the link I provided) ...... "Although local clergy, the canon law, and catechisms denounced mixed marriage, Church teaching seemed humbled in the face of young love" Even in reality, love conquers all. 'nuff said.  |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 3:40:55 GMT
Well here's my reading for the next half hour. Hope it sheds some light on how William and Julia will get married! In a nutshell (from the journal paper in the link I provided) ...... "Although local clergy, the canon law, and catechisms denounced mixed marriage, Church teaching seemed humbled in the face of young love" Even in reality, love conquers all. 'nuff said. I think I did find something elsewhere that said the Church was so afraid of losing adherents that they were extremely tolerant at the turn of the century. But this book on interfaith marriages just quoted a bigwig in Toronto as being particularly intolerant of them.  |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 3:42:33 GMT
OMG, I just thought of something! Perhaps it's like the mafia! Once the Church lets him get away something, then William owes them a favor... |
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Post by carco on Aug 10, 2014 23:08:33 GMT
OMG, I just thought of something! Perhaps it's like the mafia! Once the Church lets him get away something, then William owes them a favor... Yes, he does. His firstborn!  |
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Post by snacky on Aug 10, 2014 23:30:13 GMT
OMG, I just thought of something! Perhaps it's like the mafia! Once the Church lets him get away something, then William owes them a favor... Yes, he does. His firstborn! Not if Julia doesn't make negotiate on that dispensation.  |
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Post by carco on Aug 10, 2014 23:36:18 GMT
In a nutshell (from the journal paper in the link I provided) ...... "Although local clergy, the canon law, and catechisms denounced mixed marriage, Church teaching seemed humbled in the face of young love" Even in reality, love conquers all. 'nuff said. I think I did find something elsewhere that said the Church was so afraid of losing adherents that they were extremely tolerant at the turn of the century. But this book on interfaith marriages just quoted a bigwig in Toronto as being particularly intolerant of them. Yes, just what William needs now --- intolerance from the Catholic side! As for the reality of it, I think it may go back to Toronto being SO Protestant that the Roman Catholic church, perhaps took on a bit of a "siege" mentality. To be honest, I originally searched for the info NOT to find more info about mixed marriages (I think we've probably beaten that topic into the ground!!!) but I wanted to get a feel for what a Roman Catholic man would be up against in the workplace in 1902 Toronto. For some reason, I felt that by 1902 the whole business about being a "papist" would have started to become far less of an issue. I assumed that in 1902 he would probably face little problem getting a promotion in the police force particularly in Toronto as ideas and life were becoming so much more modern. But the last line of the journal paper proved me very wrong.....things would only get more complicated from 1900 onward. |
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Hope it sheds some light on how William and Julia will get married! 
