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Post by carco on Aug 11, 2014 0:10:50 GMT
Yes, he does. His firstborn!  Not if Julia doesn't make negotiate on that dispensation.  True that. arrrggghhhh! I'm going to assume all of the religious issues for W & J will somehow get worked out and they will concentrate on solving mysteries together and becoming a family and they will all live happily ever after in Toronto the Good. (hey, where's the smiley with the halo?  ) |
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Post by snacky on Aug 11, 2014 0:30:01 GMT
(I think we've probably beaten that topic into the ground!!!) but I wanted to get a feel for what a Roman Catholic man would be up against in the workplace in 1902 Toronto. For some reason, I felt that by 1902 the whole business about being a "papist" would have started to become far less of an issue. I assumed that in 1902 he would probably face little problem getting a promotion in the police force particularly in Toronto as ideas and life were becoming so much more modern. But the last line of the journal paper proved me very wrong.....things would only get more complicated from 1900 onward. We did beat it to the ground, except I keep forgetting why they can't be married in a Protestant church. In the end it doesn't really matter though: there will be consequences for William no matter where or how they are married. I just hope MM acknowledges those consequences, because they make good drama. Regarding the "papist" issue: I think it's not so much the religion as the growing nationalism that's at issue. Since the Church refused to separate from the State, it becomes part of the pack of characteristics that define nation/race as people scramble for scarce resources during recession/depression times (and gangs based on national affiliation develop) and countries/races start to align themselves and skirmish leading up to World War I. A lot of what's at fault is some ridiculous political/strategic theory that the Western world just has to push to limits and play out via war. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 11, 2014 0:45:14 GMT
Not if Julia doesn't make negotiate on that dispensation. True that. arrrggghhhh! I'm going to assume all of the religious issues for W & J will somehow get worked out and they will concentrate on solving mysteries together and becoming a family and they will all live happily ever after in Toronto the Good. (hey, where's the smiley with the halo? ) You don't get a halo one unless I get the devil horns one!  I'm sure the religious issues will work out in a rather pat way. Just look at how Gillies was wrapped up: a multi-season villain arc wrapped up by identification of the body? That was almost unfairly simple. As much as everyone is sick of Gillies, I almost want that not to have been his body, because that was waaaay too easy. Another example is the Divorce issue. Did William explain to Julia what the consequences for him might be if he married a Divorcee? Nope, the writers took the easy way out. They made it look like it was just a problem with William's faith - all William had to do is pray and make it right with God. Problem resolved same episode. Julia looked like a hot-headed meanie for snapping at William over it, and William looked like a man who wasn't such a Catholic after all. geez. Anyway, this time I hope the writers are more honest about both the time period and the real consequences of William's religion. That's why I harp on it here. Not because I want to ruin the wedding or because I'm obsessed with angst, but because I want the writers to acknowledge that there's an important bit of historical context here, and it happens to have some juicy dramatic aspects entailed with it. Given their record, the writers will probably punt again, though. |
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Post by carco on Aug 11, 2014 17:42:29 GMT
True that. arrrggghhhh! I'm going to assume all of the religious issues for W & J will somehow get worked out and they will concentrate on solving mysteries together and becoming a family and they will all live happily ever after in Toronto the Good. (hey, where's the smiley with the halo? ) You don't get a halo one unless I get the devil horns one! I'm sure the religious issues will work out in a rather pat way. Just look at how Gillies was wrapped up: a multi-season villain arc wrapped up by identification of the body? That was almost unfairly simple. As much as everyone is sick of Gillies, I almost want that not to have been his body, because that was waaaay too easy. Another example is the Divorce issue. Did William explain to Julia what the consequences for him might be if he married a Divorcee? Nope, the writers took the easy way out. They made it look like it was just a problem with William's faith - all William had to do is pray and make it right with God. Problem resolved same episode. Julia looked like a hot-headed meanie for snapping at William over it, and William looked like a man who wasn't such a Catholic after all. geez. Anyway, this time I hope the writers are more honest about both the time period and the real consequences of William's religion. That's why I harp on it here. Not because I want to ruin the wedding or because I'm obsessed with angst, It was Gillies's time to go... Julia seems to be pretty knowledgeable about various religious beliefs and I don't think she needed William to explain it to her. I think what she couldn't quite grasp at the time was how he had to give thought about whether he would choose church over love. And it seemed that Wm wasn't sure about that himself, until he found himself at a crossroads and HAD to make a decision. (I'm not Roman Catholic but I'm reminded of a movie I saw many years ago about a priest who had worked his way high up through the Catholic Church. At one point he had to make a decision regarding his sister who was at risk in a difficult childbirth. Doctors could save the mother or the child and the family went to him for a decision. The church required that he choose they save the baby, so his sister died.) Regarding the writer's handling the time period and consequences of Wm's religion, I think its a tough balance for them now that the personal stories have been fleshed out so much. How to show what a couple like William and Julia (and all the other regular characters on the show) would be up against in 1900 Toronto without letting the personal arcs hijack the show and leave the police and investigative stories in the dust. The trials and tribulations of the show becoming so successful, I guess. They'll work it out, I'm sure. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Aug 11, 2014 22:32:34 GMT
True that. arrrggghhhh! I'm going to assume all of the religious issues for W & J will somehow get worked out and they will concentrate on solving mysteries together and becoming a family and they will all live happily ever after in Toronto the Good. (hey, where's the smiley with the halo? ) You don't get a halo one unless I get the devil horns one! I'm sure the religious issues will work out in a rather pat way. Just look at how Gillies was wrapped up: a multi-season villain arc wrapped up by identification of the body? That was almost unfairly simple. As much as everyone is sick of Gillies, I almost want that not to have been his body, because that was waaaay too easy. Another example is the Divorce issue. Did William explain to Julia what the consequences for him might be if he married a Divorcee? Nope, the writers took the easy way out. They made it look like it was just a problem with William's faith - all William had to do is pray and make it right with God. Problem resolved same episode. Julia looked like a hot-headed meanie for snapping at William over it, and William looked like a man who wasn't such a Catholic after all. geez. Anyway, this time I hope the writers are more honest about both the time period and the real consequences of William's religion. That's why I harp on it here. Not because I want to ruin the wedding or because I'm obsessed with angst, but because I want the writers to acknowledge that there's an important bit of historical context here, and it happens to have some juicy dramatic aspects entailed with it. Given their record, the writers will probably punt again, though. I think that the writers didn't deal with all of the ramifications of a divorce because it was never going to come to that. They knew that J&D would never divorce, and didn't see the need to devote that much time to it. Also, some of that development could have ended up on the editing room floor because of time. We're probably just waaaaaaayyyyyyy overthinking it.  Also, he's devout, but not as devout as previous seasons, IMO. Also, I've had Catholic friends do whatever and just confess, take the penance, and be done with it. Or maybe he's just so anxious to get laid married, he didn't care. Concerning Gillies, yes his death (assuming it was that) was anticlimactic, but in my experience, major events usually do end with a whimper, as opposed to a blaze of explosions. Also, it was time for that story to die. |
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Post by carco on Aug 12, 2014 2:05:48 GMT
You don't get a halo one unless I get the devil horns one! I'm sure the religious issues will work out in a rather pat way. Just look at how Gillies was wrapped up: a multi-season villain arc wrapped up by identification of the body? That was almost unfairly simple. As much as everyone is sick of Gillies, I almost want that not to have been his body, because that was waaaay too easy. Another example is the Divorce issue. Did William explain to Julia what the consequences for him might be if he married a Divorcee? Nope, the writers took the easy way out. They made it look like it was just a problem with William's faith - all William had to do is pray and make it right with God. Problem resolved same episode. Julia looked like a hot-headed meanie for snapping at William over it, and William looked like a man who wasn't such a Catholic after all. geez. Anyway, this time I hope the writers are more honest about both the time period and the real consequences of William's religion. That's why I harp on it here. Not because I want to ruin the wedding or because I'm obsessed with angst, but because I want the writers to acknowledge that there's an important bit of historical context here, and it happens to have some juicy dramatic aspects entailed with it. Given their record, the writers will probably punt again, though. I think that the writers didn't deal with all of the ramifications of a divorce because it was never going to come to that. They knew that J&D would never divorce, and didn't see the need to devote that much time to it. Also, some of that development could have ended up on the editing room floor because of time. We're probably just waaaaaaayyyyyyy overthinking it. Also, he's devout, but not as devout as previous seasons, IMO. Also, I've had Catholic friends do whatever and just confess, take the penance, and be done with it. Or maybe he's just so anxious to get laid married, he didn't care. Concerning Gillies, yes his death (assuming it was that) was anticlimactic, but in my experience, major events usually do end with a whimper, as opposed to a blaze of explosions. Also, it was time for that story to die. What....US??? Overthink things?  I prefer to call it "creative reflection and summation"....pffftt |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 2:55:37 GMT
It was Gillies's time to go... lol, you Gillies hater you!  Interesting idea that Julia actually knew what the consequences for marrying a divorcee were already. But I don't think "choosing love" was such an easy decision: once we're talking about excommunication, we're also talking about eternal damnation. I believe that's what William had to pray over: if he did end up paying the ultimate price (excommunication) would that also mean damnation of his soul? After praying over it, he refused to believe this. Very good point about character arcs hijacking the show and finding a balance. I guess I always hope for genius writing finding a way, and also leaving the right doors open for viewers to fill in the blanks. For instance, if William and Julia tumble into the honeymoon suite after their wedding, we viewers can figure out what happens next. I think this can be done on more subtle character points as well, but for the door to be left open, the door has to be built in the first place. Or at least no door-hindering blockades put in place. For instance, if you want viewers to speculate on whether Julia's ascension up the fashion scale has something to do with her love/hate rivalry with her absent sister, don't make the sister such a generous and heroic figure that only a crazed neurosis-ridden psychopath would be jealous of her. Ruby is pretty much the perfect love/hate magnet, though, and we can discuss that relationship without a line of dialogue being exchanged over it. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 3:13:38 GMT
I think that the writers didn't deal with all of the ramifications of a divorce because it was never going to come to that. They knew that J&D would never divorce, and didn't see the need to devote that much time to it. Also, some of that development could have ended up on the editing room floor because of time. We're probably just waaaaaaayyyyyyy overthinking it. Also, he's devout, but not as devout as previous seasons, IMO. Also, I've had Catholic friends do whatever and just confess, take the penance, and be done with it. Or maybe he's just so anxious to get laid married, he didn't care. Concerning Gillies, yes his death (assuming it was that) was anticlimactic, but in my experience, major events usually do end with a whimper, as opposed to a blaze of explosions. Also, it was time for that story to die. lol - your explanation about the writers is sooooo cheating! But it's probably closest to the truth.  Regarding the do-it-now-confess-later approach: I just can't see William doing that. I believe he does observe a certain latitude where he thinks the Church as an institution is outdated, or there is some gray area of doctrine. But he's a morally earnest person who lives by his integrity: I don't think he'd put his soul at risk for a cheap thrill. Regarding getting laid married, I had a triple xxx fanfic idea just for you while waiting for a bus today. (Odd where these things strike you, lol). Remember that "determined woman" scene in Unfinished Business. What if Julia started demanding a conclusion to their business, which William has been resisting going through with before marriage. But since she's being so pushy, he's been doing some research on alternative routes to, shall we say, jouissance? Thought you'd like that. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 3:20:32 GMT
What....US??? Overthink things? I prefer to call it "creative reflection and summation"....pffftt *steals that line and runs with it* |
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Post by carco on Aug 12, 2014 22:12:26 GMT
It was Gillies's time to go... lol, you Gillies hater you! Very good point about character arcs hijacking the show and finding a balance. I guess I always hope for genius writing finding a way, and also leaving the right doors open for viewers to fill in the blanks. For instance, if William and Julia tumble into the honeymoon suite after their wedding, we viewers can figure out what happens next. I think this can be done on more subtle character points as well, but for the door to be left open, the door has to be built in the first place. Or at least no door-hindering blockades put in place. For instance, if you want viewers to speculate on whether Julia's ascension up the fashion scale has something to do with her love/hate rivalry with her absent sister, don't make the sister such a generous and heroic figure that only a crazed neurosis-ridden psychopath would be jealous of her. Ruby is pretty much the perfect love/hate magnet, though, and we can discuss that relationship without a line of dialogue being exchanged over it. I admit, I wouldn't mind it one iota if the character arcs took over the show but I know the writer's, etc. don't want that to happen. Whoa! That Julia/Ruby thing came out of nowhere!! First you thought of a fanfic idea for fallenbelle (by the way, is there a repeatable story that I missed regarding the name change? I keep thinking of fallen angel) and now Ruby the love/hate magnet? Exactly how long did you have to wait for that bus today?  (By the way, I bet Helene would just LOVE to play a neurosis-ridden psychopath on MM!! Maybe Julia also has a "crazed" twin sister that the family locked up in the attic for years - they did that in those days- and now that father has passed away Julia and Ruby have to deal with her.......hahaha! Talk about character arcs hijacking the show!!) |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 23:20:10 GMT
I admit, I wouldn't mind it one iota if the character arcs took over the show but I know the writer's, etc. don't want that to happen. Whoa! That Julia/Ruby thing came out of nowhere!! First you thought of a fanfic idea for fallenbelle (by the way, is there a repeatable story that I missed regarding the name change? I keep thinking of fallen angel) and now Ruby the love/hate magnet? Exactly how long did you have to wait for that bus today? (By the way, I bet Helene would just LOVE to play a neurosis-ridden psychopath on MM!! Maybe Julia also has a "crazed" twin sister that the family locked up in the attic for years - they did that in those days- and now that father has passed away Julia and Ruby have to deal with her.......hahaha! Talk about character arcs hijacking the show!!) I wouldn't want character arcs - especially a shipper arc - hijacking the show either. I think strong mystery plots make the overall show better, which ultimately enhances the character arcs. But if you feature the character arcs, there ends up being a lot more tell than show, people get bored, the whole thing becomes a soap opera, etc. So I agree: put the mystery plots first, and the most creative character development will grow out of that. Julia/Ruby is not out of nowhere - there's a thread where someone came up with the idea that Julia's hair started getting more blond because she was trying to imitate Ruby, which seemed to go along with her general jealousy of Ruby. If you take that a bit further, Julia also started dressing more fashionably (less "dowdy") after each of Ruby's visits: perhaps she started behaving more avant-garde, and Ruby herself commented on Julia's taste in music "improving". So I didn't have to spin that web while waiting for the bus at all: it was already there. And it's actually a really workable theory if you think about it, especially since Julia was still complaining about Ruby in the Death of Dr. Ogden - she's still not over it???! I just didn't want to use another William example. Regarding TokyoFallenBelle - she explained this was her forum name on her previous forum (I believe the Stargate one?). I should probably stop doing the scratch out since there might be reasons she wants to separate that identity. I only had about 10 minutes at the bus stop - just long enough to come up with a Playgirl Channel scenario that I thought ?-Belle might enjoy. But where's the comment? I even used a term dear to French feminist theory! |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 23:26:32 GMT
Maybe Julia also has a "crazed" twin sister that the family locked up in the attic for years - they did that in those days- and now that father has passed away Julia and Ruby have to deal with her.......hahaha! Talk about character arcs hijacking the show!!) Wait a minute...we don't really know where Ruby is, do we...? Somewhere in Africa, eh...? |
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Post by carco on Aug 12, 2014 23:36:16 GMT
I admit, I wouldn't mind it one iota if the character arcs took over the show but I know the writer's, etc. don't want that to happen. Whoa! That Julia/Ruby thing came out of nowhere!! First you thought of a fanfic idea for fallenbelle (by the way, is there a repeatable story that I missed regarding the name change? I keep thinking of fallen angel) and now Ruby the love/hate magnet? Exactly how long did you have to wait for that bus today? (By the way, I bet Helene would just LOVE to play a neurosis-ridden psychopath on MM!! Maybe Julia also has a "crazed" twin sister that the family locked up in the attic for years - they did that in those days- and now that father has passed away Julia and Ruby have to deal with her.......hahaha! Talk about character arcs hijacking the show!!) I wouldn't want character arcs - especially a shipper arc - hijacking the show either. I think strong mystery plots make the overall show better, which ultimately enhances the character arcs. But if you feature the character arcs, there ends up being a lot more tell than show, people get bored, the whole thing becomes a soap opera, etc. So I agree: put the mystery plots first, and the most creative character development will grow out of that. Julia/Ruby is not out of nowhere - there's a thread where someone came up with the idea that Julia's hair started getting more blond because she was trying to imitate Ruby, which seemed to go along with her general jealousy of Ruby. If you take that a bit further, Julia also started dressing more fashionably (less "dowdy") after each of Ruby's visits: perhaps she started behaving more avant-garde, and Ruby herself commented on Julia's taste in music "improving". So I didn't have to spin that web while waiting for the bus at all: it was already there. And it's actually a really workable theory if you think about it, especially since Julia was still complaining about Ruby in the Death of Dr. Ogden - she's still not over it???! I just didn't want to use another William example. Regarding TokyoFallenBelle - she explained this was her forum name on her previous forum (I believe the Stargate one?). I should probably stop doing the scratch out since there might be reasons she wants to separate that identity. I only had about 10 minutes at the bus stop - just long enough to come up with a Playgirl Channel scenario that I thought ?-Belle might enjoy. But where's the comment? I even used a term dear to French feminist theory! Thanks for bringign me up to date, snacky.  I knew I must have missed a lot of background discussion. |
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Post by snacky on Aug 12, 2014 23:58:29 GMT
Thanks for bringign me up to date, snacky. I knew I must have missed a lot of background discussion. Naw, the conversation is all over the place. I'm the only one who has had ridiculous time on my hands to keep up with all the threads. Hopefully that will change soon, though. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Aug 13, 2014 0:39:45 GMT
Regarding TokyoFallenBelle - she explained this was her forum name on her previous forum (I believe the Stargate one?). I should probably stop doing the scratch out since there might be reasons she wants to separate that identity. I only had about 10 minutes at the bus stop - just long enough to come up with a Playgirl Channel scenario that I thought ?-Belle might enjoy. I chose the name Fallenbelle years ago as my fandom name because I was a naughty southern belle. No big big secret surrounding the name change-I just thought I should keep the same fandom name as before (Stargate)-S/J fic), and I had forgotten about it when I made this account. But, I can't remember my password for fanfic.net, so I ended up having to create a new fallenbelle2 account on there. I know I need to go back and flesh out some of my comment fics and post them, but we ended up moving, so my life's in a bit of chaos right now. |
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) 
I prefer to call it "creative reflection and summation"....pffftt 
I knew I must have missed a lot of background discussion.