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Post by Hodge on Dec 19, 2015 19:02:43 GMT
Forgive me reviving an old thread, but I'll throw out some points to consider for what they're worth: - At the risk of sounding like Bill Cliinton, it depends on what your definition of "virgin" is. Or to put it another way, where do you draw the line exactly? He may have indulged in a certain amount of heavy petting or foreplay one a few occasions (perhaps during his backstory engagement?) without crossing the vaginal rubicon.
- Despite the biblical business equating looking lustfully at a woman with actually having sex with her, it seems clear he can fantasize about women. Perhaps that's because he does "live inside [his] head" as Julia once observed. At least that would give him something to say in confession.
- He may know a thing or two about sex from reading up on the subject, and the knowledge informs his behaviour and reactions. While he has some Holmesian lacunae in his knowledge (he was unfamiliar with wedding customs, for example), I would expect him to have read up on the subject of sex, even if only to enhance his knowledge base for his job. Then the question becomes what books or other sources were available to him on the subject.
Many of these points have been made in the past and to the writers' credit they still keep us guessing. |
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Post by snacky on Dec 19, 2015 20:00:45 GMT
Forgive me reviving an old thread, but I'll throw out some points to consider for what they're worth: - At the risk of sounding like Bill Cliinton, it depends on what your definition of "virgin" is. Or to put it another way, where do you draw the line exactly? He may have indulged in a certain amount of heavy petting or foreplay one a few occasions (perhaps during his backstory engagement?) without crossing the vaginal rubicon.
- Despite the biblical business equating looking lustfully at a woman with actually having sex with her, it seems clear he can fantasize about women. Perhaps that's because he does "live inside [his] head" as Julia once observed. At least that would give him something to say in confession.
- He may know a thing or two about sex from reading up on the subject, and the knowledge informs his behaviour and reactions. While he has some Holmesian lacunae in his knowledge (he was unfamiliar with wedding customs, for example), I would expect him to have read up on the subject of sex, even if only to enhance his knowledge base for his job. Then the question becomes what books or other sources were available to him on the subject.
Many of these points have been made in the past and to the writers' credit they still keep us guessing. I get a kick out of the fact the writers themselves disagree! |
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Post by urbanperegrine on Dec 20, 2015 22:44:21 GMT
 I suspect many people in real life have some disagreements over what "counts" as sex and what doesn't. Brackenreid clearly expected him to be a virgin, given that marital advice he gave Murdoch in the carriage en route to the wedding. Perhaps his expectations differed from reality, as with his sister wanting him to become a priest.
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Post by Fallenbelle on Dec 21, 2015 11:37:55 GMT
I suspect many people in real life have some disagreements over what "counts" as sex and what doesn't. Brackenreid clearly expected him to be a virgin, given that marital advice he gave Murdoch in the carriage en route to the wedding. Perhaps his expectations differed from reality, as with his sister wanting him to become a priest. In Walk on the Wild Side, Peter Mitchell has said that William had sex with Anna, and was late for work the next morning as a result. However, as Snacky mentioned, he also said that the writers can't even agree-many felt that he remained a virgin until he married and so, ambiguity. But I'm not complaining-it's more fun this way. I've enjoyed the duality theory where'e he's both a virgin and not at the same time. |
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Post by carco on Dec 21, 2015 20:30:51 GMT
I suspect many people in real life have some disagreements over what "counts" as sex and what doesn't. Brackenreid clearly expected him to be a virgin, given that marital advice he gave Murdoch in the carriage en route to the wedding. Perhaps his expectations differed from reality, as with his sister wanting him to become a priest. In Walk on the Wild Side, Peter Mitchell has said that William had sex with Anna, and was late for work the next morning as a result. However, as Snacky mentioned, he also said that the writers can't even agree-many felt that he remained a virgin until he married and so, ambiguity. But I'm not complaining-it's more fun this way. I've enjoyed the duality theory where'e he's both a virgin and not at the same time. In the "Investigating Murdoch Mysteries" book, one of the "Did You Know?" notes states (as we have concluded in the past) even the writers could not come to a consensus on this and "only Murdoch himself knows for sure." They say the debate still rages on in the writer's room..........and here apparently.  |
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Post by bookworm1225 on Dec 23, 2015 16:57:43 GMT
It's the Schrodinger's Cat of the Murdoch world!  |
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Post by nia on Feb 3, 2016 1:22:42 GMT
Okay, just rewatched GM and Miss Westin (sp?) and William definitely have a knowledge of one another beyond he solved her friend's murder. She's got no problem with being in his personal space, she's touching him, and that kiss at the end...yes, it was an awkward, shy kiss of sorts, but there was a familiarity about it as well. Was she trying to tempt him one more time? But not that much, because she's knows William's romantically unavailable now. Or, in a continuity error, did the writers initially try to portray William as a man of experience and a darker past in the first few seasons, and veer towards a purer William in later seasons? I'm not sure what to think-thoughts? I got the original movies from the library today and whilst I haven't watched them I skimmed through and I think I've found where the relationship between William and Ettie comes from. It seems to be in Poor Tom is Cold, Ettie definitely has a thing for William and whilst he's not shy he's not partaking of her charms either. This is definitely NOT from the books. Seems the movies depart quite considerably from the books as well. Will see what actually happens when I get around to watching it properly. |
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Post by nia on Feb 3, 2016 2:23:21 GMT
In the Maureen Jennings books, Murdoch has "connections" with the Enid character, implying that their relationship is sexual. Of course, enid is hoping to marry Murdoch and a sexual relationship in the context of a possible marriage would not be considered somewhat respectable. Also, Enid was a widow. Murdoch might have felt differently about having sexual relations with a virgin. He did after all in the MM TV series refrain from sexual relations with his betrothed. I seriously doubt if Murdoch was a virgin because there was a double stanadard in place during Victorian times and people were not as prudish as people thought they were. Although Murdoch was a Catholic and engaging in sexual relations was a mortal sin, confession and penance for a lapse would have restored him to a state of grace. In "Holy Matrimony", the inspector gives Murdoch a "facts of life" speech that causes a look of astonishment on Murdoch's face. Clearly, he looks like he can't believe that the Inspector thinks he needs instruction. In one of the early episodes when Murdoch poses as a gay man in order to investigate the murder of a man in a church, Murdoch is not judgmental of anyone's sexual orientation and even warns, at the end of the episode, that the gay men should move their meeting place to avoid police detection. As a Catholic, Murdoch should supposedly diapprove of homosexuality but he actualll seems to be open-minded. In other words, Murdoch is not a prude. I would assume that after entering the police force, Murdoch would be a little more circumspect about his behavior. The situation with Julia is based more on class than on a lack of desire. In his mind, he's courting a lady with the hope of marrying her. In such a situation, he would behave according to the strictures of the polite society Julia inhabited. When Julia told him about the abortion, he was not as upset about her admission that she had sex before marriage that led to her abortion as he was that she was not sorry that she had an abortion and was not sorry about it. Her lack of repentance about the aborttion was what probably shook his world view. Catholics consider abortions mortal sins, but offer forgiveness to those who repent and do penance. It was her opinion that she felt justified by her descision and expressed no regret that may have shaken William, Actually, William and Julia should have communicated better at the time and saved themselves a lot of heartache.
As for the hotel scene when they played dominoes, that was due to a provision in the law that required evidence of adultery. Julia and Murdoch were providing the typical "hotel evidence" required by the courts. Usually, the husband went through the charade of being "caught" in by servants in a hotel room with a woman who was paid to act as a correpondent. Obviously, Darcy wasn't willing to be the "guilty" party. This was considered the gentlemanly thing to do. Darcy wasn't willing to do the "gentlemanly" thing. Even in Victorian times, everyone regarded the "Typical hotel evidence" as a farce. Murdoch did not want to jeopardize Julia's reputation in reality. He was gallantly allowing her to go through the necessary motions to obtain a divorce. Since they intended to marry anyways, he did not want Julia tainted as an adulteress. Unfortunately in the trial, an incorrect implication was made about Julia's overnight stay in the hotel. The hotel stay actually was the Victorian way of getting around a ridiculous law that did not allow couple to divorce because they were no longer compatible. Adultery was a serious blot on a woman's reputation and William was careful to protect Julia from any scandal. Also, mention was made of Julia's multiple partners. Other than the man who impregnated her, Darcy and Murdoch, there is no reason that Julia had sexual relationships with any other men. Yes, I believe that Murdoch may have had a sexual relationship with Anna. Murdoch may have been a little uptight, but there is no reason to believe he was a 40 year old virgin.
o
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Post by Hodge on Feb 3, 2016 3:19:28 GMT
Also, mention was made of Julia's multiple partners. Other than the man who impregnated her, Darcy and Murdoch, there is no reason that Julia had sexual relationships with any other men. No mention has ever been made of Julia having multiple partners other than the student, Darcy and now William. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Feb 4, 2016 3:45:08 GMT
In the Maureen Jennings books, Murdoch has "connections" with the Enid character, implying that their relationship is sexual. Of course, enid is hoping to marry Murdoch and a sexual relationship in the context of a possible marriage would not be considered somewhat respectable. Also, Enid was a widow. Murdoch might have felt differently about having sexual relations with a virgin. He did after all in the MM TV series refrain from sexual relations with his betrothed. I seriously doubt if Murdoch was a virgin because there was a double stanadard in place during Victorian times and people were not as prudish as people thought they were. Although Murdoch was a Catholic and engaging in sexual relations was a mortal sin, confession and penance for a lapse would have restored him to a state of grace. In "Holy Matrimony", the inspector gives Murdoch a "facts of life" speech that causes a look of astonishment on Murdoch's face. Clearly, he looks like he can't believe that the Inspector thinks he needs instruction. In one of the early episodes when Murdoch poses as a gay man in order to investigate the murder of a man in a church, Murdoch is not judgmental of anyone's sexual orientation and even warns, at the end of the episode, that the gay men should move their meeting place to avoid police detection. As a Catholic, Murdoch should supposedly diapprove of homosexuality but he actualll seems to be open-minded. In other words, Murdoch is not a prude. I would assume that after entering the police force, Murdoch would be a little more circumspect about his behavior. The situation with Julia is based more on class than on a lack of desire. In his mind, he's courting a lady with the hope of marrying her. In such a situation, he would behave according to the strictures of the polite society Julia inhabited. When Julia told him about the abortion, he was not as upset about her admission that she had sex before marriage that led to her abortion as he was that she was not sorry that she had an abortion and was not sorry about it. Her lack of repentance about the aborttion was what probably shook his world view. Catholics consider abortions mortal sins, but offer forgiveness to those who repent and do penance. It was her opinion that she felt justified by her descision and expressed no regret that may have shaken William, Actually, William and Julia should have communicated better at the time and saved themselves a lot of heartache. As for the hotel scene when they played dominoes, that was due to a provision in the law that required evidence of adultery. Julia and Murdoch were providing the typical "hotel evidence" required by the courts. Usually, the husband went through the charade of being "caught" in by servants in a hotel room with a woman who was paid to act as a correpondent. Obviously, Darcy wasn't willing to be the "guilty" party. This was considered the gentlemanly thing to do. Darcy wasn't willing to do the "gentlemanly" thing. Even in Victorian times, everyone regarded the "Typical hotel evidence" as a farce. Murdoch did not want to jeopardize Julia's reputation in reality. He was gallantly allowing her to go through the necessary motions to obtain a divorce. Since they intended to marry anyways, he did not want Julia tainted as an adulteress. Unfortunately in the trial, an incorrect implication was made about Julia's overnight stay in the hotel. The hotel stay actually was the Victorian way of getting around a ridiculous law that did not allow couple to divorce because they were no longer compatible. Adultery was a serious blot on a woman's reputation and William was careful to protect Julia from any scandal. Also, mention was made of Julia's multiple partners. Other than the man who impregnated her, Darcy and Murdoch, there is no reason that Julia had sexual relationships with any other men. Yes, I believe that Murdoch may have had a sexual relationship with Anna. Murdoch may have been a little uptight, but there is no reason to believe he was a 40 year old virgin. Hi Nia, You're right that in the books, William was no virgin in that he slept with Enid and I don't know how far you've gotten in the books, but... **** SPOILER ALERT**** He also slept with his wife Amy (who was really a common-law wife at the time) and didn't marry her until she became pregnant with their child. In all fairness however, it was Amy who shunned marriage, and not Murdoch, who had proposed. She accepted only after she became pregnant. I don't recall any mention being made of her being a virgin, but it certainly was a possibility. Perhaps someone can help me out here if they remember mention of that or not. ****END SPOILER ALERT**** I don't know how much of the boards you've read either, but we've discussed before that the books, movies, and tv are quite different from one another and while book William was sexually active, I don't think it's anywhere near as clear if movie or tv William were active, although the movies' scenes with Ettie certainly make you think there was something between them. There's evidence to support both positions, and it's been said that even the writers can't agree-which is why we have evidence for both. As I've said before, I believe in both, and I think it's more fun that way. Plenty of fic has been written that explores both, and I think that the show's evidence supports both positions. As for communicating, neither William or Julia have ever been any good at that, and IMO, still aren't good at it. |
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Post by mzcrabtree on May 17, 2021 13:16:38 GMT
This looks like a good thread for this subject, although it may have been spoken of in another thread, I can't find it. I'm just catching up on the latest episodes because I don't live in Canada and had to wait for online streaming.
Regarding the 14th Season (Series) of the television series: SPOILER ALERT. If you haven't seen the final two episodes of the 14th season and don't want to know about it, STOP READING HERE.
Begin SPOILER ---
In episodes 10 and 11 we're introduced to young Harry who is said to the be the child of William and Anna. The child's birthday was 11 March 1900. So, um, what happened to virgin William? You remember the shy guy who held out for marriage, the one who heard the finer facts of the wedding night from the Inspector during the carriage ride to the wedding??? Now we hear from William, in conversation with Julia, that he and Anna had been together once. And this was the first time Julia heard about it also!! Yet she never blinked an eye. Not once did she say, "But, William, weren't you a 40-year-old virgin on our wedding night???"
Did the TV people not realize their loyal fans of the show would remember this tiny little fact?
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sand
New Member
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Post by sand on Oct 30, 2021 21:02:04 GMT
Does anyone know what the books are on Murdoch’s desk? (I’m up to S8E8)
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I suspect many people in real life have some disagreements over what "counts" as sex and what doesn't. Brackenreid clearly expected him to be a virgin, given that marital advice he gave Murdoch in the carriage en route to the wedding. Perhaps his expectations differed from reality, as with his sister wanting him to become a priest. 
