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Post by snacky on Jul 12, 2014 0:34:50 GMT
There are fans who take it at face value that William saved himself for marriage (Victorian morals, values William has stated during the series, William's Catholic faith, lack of direct evidence of deed-doing, etc.) and fans who seem to think it's self-evident that William has been getting it on with Julia at various intervals, and perhaps others in the past (this is supported by the books, and perhaps hinted at in the show). For the record, there is no definitive proof of William's sexual activities. William could have been getting it on with Meyers all these years for all we know. I like to keep my options open on this subject. I find the idea of the 40 Year Old Virgin more viable for humor (romantic as well as slapstick), but I don't like the idea that William and Julia wasted their best years pining for each other either. When I do go with "not a 40 year old virgin", here is some of the evidence that comes to mind: 1) During the Green Muse Nookie Scene, William says "For Tonight" in such an unabashed way, one can't help but think he's been in this situation before, and he is clearly only deferring the nookie, not cancelling it. He seems to have suddenly forgotten the laws about contraception and abortion he was so zealously enforcing earlier: perhaps part of him is hoping he can get Julia pregnant? When Julia brings up prophylactics, he calls her "modern" instead of berating her with lectures about the law. William knows what the consequences of sex outside of marriage can be, yet there he is pursuing that path, consequences be darned. 2) In Convalescence and again in The Murdoch Identity, William envisions/remembers Julia in her lacy under-things. While Convalescence could be a dream, The Murdoch Identity is supposed to be a memory. This could be explained by William having some opportunity to rifle through Julia's drawers (panty raid!), as he seem's to have done in order to be able to fantasize about Julia in the wedding dress he never saw, but wouldn't the more likely explanation be that William actually saw Julia in her lacy under-garments? In Convalescence William asked: "Why can't we always be like this?" as if they had been that way (i.e., happily snuggling in bed) before. 3) I just picked up on some interesting phrasing in The Kissing Bandit. When William is interviewing The Dull Boyfriend and goes off on his tangent where he's really talking about Julia about not being able to say/do anything to prevent the loss of the love of his life, William uses the phrase: "...a stranger arouses her passions...". I realize that the word "passions" had a broader sense in the Victorian era than it does today, and it was a term that was frequently used to describe movements of the soul and such. However, I think, in combination with the word "aroused", William might actually have been using the word in the more modern sense: perhaps he literally thought that Darcy turned Julia on sexually more than William did. This seems to be underscored by William's reaction to the next line about love being true despite lack of grand gestures. Is it possible that while Julia was going on about her lack of ability to have children, William thought he wasn't doing enough to sexually satisfy her? If that's the case, all I can say is OMG, how fracking MAN CAVE of him!  4) In Murdoch in Ragtime when Temperance!Woman is complaining about the "lewd" dancing and Julia remarks (in public!) that this sounds like "a case for the detective" - leading to a scolding/blushing look from William - I just can't believe Julia would make a tease like that unless she and William were actually up to something "lewd". Otherwise that kind of teasing would just be cruel. |
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Post by snacky on Jul 12, 2014 16:15:57 GMT
Note: in another thread Tokyobelle has laid out a spirited counter-argument in favor of William saving himself for marriage, and the elaborate tie-binding/tie-loosening symbolism around all that. Also noteworthy, IMHO, is that during Season 7 Julia was testing William's resolve a lot, teasing him and testing his limits, while William seemed to he holding out for marriage. Interesting turn of the tables. By the way, I have a radio alarm clock, and I left it on this morning because the songs that were playing were strangely apropos to this theme: When You Come Undone (Duran Duran), Dark Horse (Katy Perry), Happy (Pharrel) - which also made me think of Lucky (Daft Punk). By the time I was awake, I was Believing in the Tie theory, lol. SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES! I blame SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES!  Anyway, as I always say, you can have a lot of fun whatever your view on William's "nookie status" is. For me half the genius of this video by CC is it throws in a little suggested ambivalence about William's proclivities. Might as well throw the doors open to ALL possibilities. Dang if this fandom had its own non-censored archive there would be crackfic of all genre coming out the windows! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Jul 28, 2014 5:39:00 GMT
Okay, just rewatched GM and Miss Westin (sp?) and William definitely have a knowledge of one another beyond he solved her friend's murder.
She's got no problem with being in his personal space, she's touching him, and that kiss at the end...yes, it was an awkward, shy kiss of sorts, but there was a familiarity about it as well. Was she trying to tempt him one more time? But not that much, because she's knows William's romantically unavailable now.
Or, in a continuity error, did the writers initially try to portray William as a man of experience and a darker past in the first few seasons, and veer towards a purer William in later seasons?
I'm not sure what to think-thoughts?
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Post by snacky on Jul 28, 2014 5:59:30 GMT
Okay, just rewatched GM and Miss Westin (sp?) and William definitely have a knowledge of one another beyond he solved her friend's murder. She's got no problem with being in his personal space, she's touching him, and that kiss at the end...yes, it was an awkward, shy kiss of sorts, but there was a familiarity about it as well. Was she trying to tempt him one more time? But not that much, because she's knows William's romantically unavailable now. Or, in a continuity error, did the writers initially try to portray William as a man of experience and a darker past in the first few seasons, and veer towards a purer William in later seasons? I'm not sure what to think-thoughts? Eus knows from the movie whether any more of that relationship was shown or implied. I think it's in the books as well. My thought is the first season was supposed to have some continuity with the movies, and since the writers brought up Ettie Weston, who was also in the movies, they had to wrap up her story line. IMHO, the writers were trying on a lot of different ideas and show directions in Season 1, but they probably always intended William to be the James Bond type (all women want him, while he shuns them all) rather than a "pure" virgin. They also seemed to be shipping William/Julia from Still Walters, and definitely from Bad Medicine. Ettie Weston was just thrown in there to make Julia jealous. In the Kill Snacky thread I speculate that William could have a son by Ettie he doesn't know about, though.  |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 8, 2014 3:47:40 GMT
Okay, just rewatched GM and Miss Westin (sp?) and William definitely have a knowledge of one another beyond he solved her friend's murder. She's got no problem with being in his personal space, she's touching him, and that kiss at the end...yes, it was an awkward, shy kiss of sorts, but there was a familiarity about it as well. Was she trying to tempt him one more time? But not that much, because she's knows William's romantically unavailable now. Or, in a continuity error, did the writers initially try to portray William as a man of experience and a darker past in the first few seasons, and veer towards a purer William in later seasons? I'm not sure what to think-thoughts? I got the original movies from the library today and whilst I haven't watched them I skimmed through and I think I've found where the relationship between William and Ettie comes from. It seems to be in Poor Tom is Cold, Ettie definitely has a thing for William and whilst he's not shy he's not partaking of her charms either. This is definitely NOT from the books. Seems the movies depart quite considerably from the books as well. Will see what actually happens when I get around to watching it properly. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Oct 8, 2014 4:20:41 GMT
Okay, just rewatched GM and Miss Westin (sp?) and William definitely have a knowledge of one another beyond he solved her friend's murder. She's got no problem with being in his personal space, she's touching him, and that kiss at the end...yes, it was an awkward, shy kiss of sorts, but there was a familiarity about it as well. Was she trying to tempt him one more time? But not that much, because she's knows William's romantically unavailable now. Or, in a continuity error, did the writers initially try to portray William as a man of experience and a darker past in the first few seasons, and veer towards a purer William in later seasons? I'm not sure what to think-thoughts? I got the original movies from the library today and whilst I haven't watched them I skimmed through and I think I've found where the relationship between William and Ettie comes from. It seems to be in Poor Tom is Cold, Ettie definitely has a thing for William and whilst he's not shy he's not partaking of her charms either. This is definitely NOT from the books. Seems the movies depart quite considerably from the books as well. Will see what actually happens when I get around to watching it properly. One of these days, I'd like to get my hands on the movies. But until then, I'm definitely going to keep wondering about those two. |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 8, 2014 4:33:36 GMT
I got the original movies from the library today and whilst I haven't watched them I skimmed through and I think I've found where the relationship between William and Ettie comes from. It seems to be in Poor Tom is Cold, Ettie definitely has a thing for William and whilst he's not shy he's not partaking of her charms either. This is definitely NOT from the books. Seems the movies depart quite considerably from the books as well. Will see what actually happens when I get around to watching it properly. One of these days, I'd like to get my hands on the movies. But until then, I'm definitely going to keep wondering about those two. On skimming through they're definitely different from the show. Though it's two different actors playing Murdoch I'm seeing some similarities in the portrayals. I like the feel of the movies too. Looking forward to watching, maybe next weekend. I also skimmed through Under the Dragon's Tail where Helene plays the villain, I can see why they liked her and wanted her to play Julia in the show. I have to say though that I like Keeley Hawes as Julia and there's very much the same feel as early show William and Julia in the movies, unfortunately she's not in the last one. |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 8, 2014 20:53:19 GMT
One of these days, I'd like to get my hands on the movies. But until then, I'm definitely going to keep wondering about those two. On skimming through they're definitely different from the show. Though it's two different actors playing Murdoch I'm seeing some similarities in the portrayals. I like the feel of the movies too. Looking forward to watching, maybe next weekend. I also skimmed through Under the Dragon's Tail where Helene plays the villain, I can see why they liked her and wanted her to play Julia in the show. I have to say though that I like Keeley Hawes as Julia and there's very much the same feel as early show William and Julia in the movies, unfortunately she's not in the last one. I watched Except the Dying today. I won't say I loved it but I did really like it. Ettie played a big part and had a thing for Murdoch which he almost gave in to, they did kiss. Not sure if it was his grief for Liza or the fact that he was a cop and she a prostitute that was holding him back. There was an instant connection between Murdoch and Julia (loved Keeley Hawes in this roll). I can see where William's "From the first time we met...." comes from. I liked Peter Outerbridge as Murdoch and if he'd been in the show I would have been fine with that but I have to say I prefer the Murdoch we've got.  All in all well worth the watch, looking forward to the next two. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 8, 2014 21:12:41 GMT
William's "From the first time we met...." comes from. I would buy William being attracted to Julia from the minute he laid eyes on her (as long as Liza was already dead). My quibble with that "always" line was William didn't exactly carry a torch for Julia for 7 seasons. He opted to try Enid instead during Season 2. Hopefully during Season 4 and 5 he made some honest effort to place his affections elsewhere. His relationship with Julia evolved in difficult ways, and it's stronger because of that. I hate seeing that reduced to a sappy "forever luv" line. |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 8, 2014 21:22:45 GMT
William's "From the first time we met...." comes from. I would buy William being attracted to Julia from the minute he laid eyes on her (as long as Liza was already dead). My quibble with that "always" line was William didn't exactly carry a torch for Julia for 7 seasons. He opted to try Enid instead during Season 2. Hopefully during Season 4 and 5 he made some honest effort to place his affections elsewhere. His relationship with Julia evolved in difficult ways, and it's stronger because of that. I hate seeing that reduced to a sappy "forever luv" line. I thought it was kinda sappy too, probably for the shippers. However, he only tried Enid because Julia pushed him away. They were both still enamoured of each other but couldn't quite get it together again. If Julia had made it clear she was still interested in him he would have dropped Enid like a hot potato. When she said "I think of you" with regard to the salvia William was clearly hoping she meant she was thinking of him. I don't think he did try to find someone else however someone he felt deeply for did come into his life again, unfortunately things didn't work out because of the Black Hand. If it hadn't been for the Black Hand I think William may have been married to Anna now and Julia would have been the one moping. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 8, 2014 21:48:44 GMT
I thought it was kinda sappy too, probably for the shippers. However, he only tried Enid because Julia pushed him away. They were both still enamoured of each other but couldn't quite get it together again. If Julia had made it clear she was still interested in him he would have dropped Enid like a hot potato. When she said "I think of you" with regard to the salvia William was clearly hoping she meant she was thinking of him. I don't think he did try to find someone else however someone he felt deeply for did come into his life again, unfortunately things didn't work out because of the Black Hand. If it hadn't been for the Black Hand I think William may have been married to Anna now and Julia would have been the one moping. I'm not blaming William - I love how difficult their relationship has been. I just hate how it was reduced to a trite hallmark card for the benefit of shippers. The salvias were so much more clever. I don't think William would have married Anna. I think he would have dated her, had a lot of fun with her, but he never would have found true intellectual companionship with her. That bit of dissatisfaction would nag at him, and William would remain a bachelor. |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 8, 2014 21:55:08 GMT
I'm not blaming William - I love how difficult their relationship has been. I just hate how it was reduced to a trite hallmark card for the benefit of shippers. The salvias were so much more clever. I don't think William would have married Anna. I think he would have dated her, had a lot of fun with her, but he never would have found true intellectual companionship with her. That bit of dissatisfaction would nag at him, and William would remain a bachelor. Anna may not have had William or Julia's intellect but she was far from a stupid woman and she did help him with one of his cases.... |
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Post by snacky on Oct 9, 2014 1:09:06 GMT
I'm not blaming William - I love how difficult their relationship has been. I just hate how it was reduced to a trite hallmark card for the benefit of shippers. The salvias were so much more clever. I don't think William would have married Anna. I think he would have dated her, had a lot of fun with her, but he never would have found true intellectual companionship with her. That bit of dissatisfaction would nag at him, and William would remain a bachelor. Anna may not have had William or Julia's intellect but she was far from a stupid woman and she did help him with one of his cases.... I don't think she's stupid, but I think William is attracted to depth of book learning, since he himself is an auto-didact that didn't go to college. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Oct 13, 2014 8:18:53 GMT
So, in rewatching the series with my husband, and he says no, William's not a virgin. However, he is insecure and unsure around Julia because she's "out of his league" but he really has a thing for her so he's definitely on his best behavior.
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Post by snacky on Oct 13, 2014 8:26:06 GMT
So, in rewatching the series with my husband, and he says no, William's not a virgin. However, he is insecure and unsure around Julia because she's "out of his league" but he really has a thing for her so he's definitely on his best behavior. This is interesting considering how insecure Julia was - especially when Ruby was around. But perhaps it's mainly the financial/class part that's "out of his league". I guess that also accounts for why William is more forward with Anna than he is with Julia. |
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All in all well worth the watch, looking forward to the next two.