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Post by snacky on Sept 13, 2014 19:17:22 GMT
You're absolutely right that Julia represents the entire virgin/whore topic, and it is a central issue to the show as it bridges the transition from a more traditional world to a more modern one. Interestingly, William has accepted that even before she married, he wasn't the first, yet he still seems to want to save her for marriage. It's a very interesting paradox indeed. Obviously he's torn on the issue! But he also has a very orderly personality: he's not going to just let contradictions of thought, much less behavior, go on unresolved. So the question for me - and why I keep starting these threads - is where does William split the difference? I really need to get back up to the library and find a book on Cantor, because I think his confrontation with the church might provide some actually provide some insight on William's "ordering rules" here. Unlike Galileo, Cantor managed to fend off the Church's authority and argue for the free pursuit of scientific reasoning. He was defending his ideas about infinity at the time, which had some religious implications. Scientists had to find a way to knit scientific with religious truth, and William has already been working on that. Whatever concord he reached on that has to also explain his attitudes and approach toward Julia. There might be a little bit of turning the whore into a virgin here, though. William did say in Murdoch in Ladies Wear that he and Julia needed to get married because of his principles and his respect for her: i.e., marriage would make a respectable woman out of Julia. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 13, 2014 19:51:25 GMT
You're absolutely right that Julia represents the entire virgin/whore topic, and it is a central issue to the show as it bridges the transition from a more traditional world to a more modern one. Interestingly, William has accepted that even before she married, he wasn't the first, yet he still seems to want to save her for marriage. It's a very interesting paradox indeed. Obviously he's torn on the issue! But he also has a very orderly personality: he's not going to just let contradictions of thought, much less behavior, go on unresolved. So the question for me - and why I keep starting these threads - is where does William split the difference? I really need to get back up to the library and find a book on Cantor, because I think his confrontation with the church might provide some actually provide some insight on William's "ordering rules" here. Unlike Galileo, Cantor managed to fend off the Church's authority and argue for the free pursuit of scientific reasoning. He was defending his ideas about infinity at the time, which had some religious implications. Scientists had to find a way to knit scientific with religious truth, and William has already been working on that. Whatever concord he reached on that has to also explain his attitudes and approach toward Julia. There might be a little bit of turning the whore into a virgin here, though. William did say in Murdoch in Ladies Wear that he and Julia needed to get married because of his principles and his respect for her: i.e., marriage would make a respectable woman out of Julia. Or is it because he respects her he won't be with her? It makes sense in season 6 because she's married, and he doesn't want to label her as an adulteress. But after that, is it because he doesn't want to be with the woman who will become his wife until she is his wife? He has fun with less respectable girls, but has never compromised his wife? |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 13, 2014 23:25:37 GMT
I may have a particular thing for William without his suit coat (i.e. his vest) and his shirt sleeves rolled up. It's hot. Not the same as just his undershirt hot, but perhaps even hotter in a special way. Perhaps it's because propriety has been breached. Absolutely love William in his vest and shirt sleeves. Love the cut of the vest, very form fitting and yet still fully dressed. I'll take a fully dressed lithe man in a well fitting suit to a naked muscle man any day. The thrill is in the imagination. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 13, 2014 23:35:07 GMT
Or is it because he respects her he won't be with her? It makes sense in season 6 because she's married, and he doesn't want to label her as an adulteress. But after that, is it because he doesn't want to be with the woman who will become his wife until she is his wife? He has fun with less respectable girls, but has never compromised his wife? Now there's a paradox: being the instrument of the compromise of your own (future) wife! |
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Post by snacky on Sept 13, 2014 23:41:43 GMT
I may have a particular thing for William without his suit coat (i.e. his vest) and his shirt sleeves rolled up. It's hot. Not the same as just his undershirt hot, but perhaps even hotter in a special way. Perhaps it's because propriety has been breached. Absolutely love William in his vest and shirt sleeves. Love the cut of the vest, very form fitting and yet still fully dressed. I'll take a fully dressed lithe man in a well fitting suit to a naked muscle man any day. The thrill is in the imagination. Get him on horseback for the full gallant! |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 13, 2014 23:54:00 GMT
Soooo, I was rewatching season 6, and hubby joined me (first time) while watching Murdoch in Ladies Wear. He quickly picked up on W/J and noted that Julia took it rather well that William was having sexual dreams about Eva. I agree. Given her annoyance that William was allowing Eva to play him in the interview, and she definitely didn't like it when she was touching him, why do you think she seemed none too upset that William was fantasizing about another woman in a sexual manner. This relates to this topic because if they haven't, because William wants to wait until they're married, why isn't she more worried/angered that William is dreaming about having sex with another woman? Is this more proof that William will play with other women, but not with Julia because she's "the one you marry". That can't please Julia too much either. I'm really thinking that while William and Julia haven't, he has-with other women. Argh! This might be the end of my duality theory. I don't think Julia was annoyed that William was allowing Eva to play him, he didn't know he was being played. She clearly saw that he was being manipulated in ways he didn't understand. To me she looked more like she was studying Eva carefully and reading her intentions. She wasn't upset that William was having dreams of being seduced by Eva because she knew exactly what she was and how she used men. She knew William wasn't interested in Eva on a conscious level and he had no control over his subconscious. I think William slept with Anna but only in Toronto. I've always wondered what he meant when he said "what transpired in England should remain in England" as I don't think he would have slept with Anna once he remembered Julia and he didn't seem to have had a chance before he remembered. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 13, 2014 23:55:41 GMT
Absolutely love William in his vest and shirt sleeves. Love the cut of the vest, very form fitting and yet still fully dressed. I'll take a fully dressed lithe man in a well fitting suit to a naked muscle man any day. The thrill is in the imagination. Get him on horseback for the full gallant! Absolutely! Everything's better on horseback! |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 14, 2014 0:12:14 GMT
Obviously he's torn on the issue! But he also has a very orderly personality: he's not going to just let contradictions of thought, much less behavior, go on unresolved. So the question for me - and why I keep starting these threads - is where does William split the difference? I really need to get back up to the library and find a book on Cantor, because I think his confrontation with the church might provide some actually provide some insight on William's "ordering rules" here. Unlike Galileo, Cantor managed to fend off the Church's authority and argue for the free pursuit of scientific reasoning. He was defending his ideas about infinity at the time, which had some religious implications. Scientists had to find a way to knit scientific with religious truth, and William has already been working on that. Whatever concord he reached on that has to also explain his attitudes and approach toward Julia. There might be a little bit of turning the whore into a virgin here, though. William did say in Murdoch in Ladies Wear that he and Julia needed to get married because of his principles and his respect for her: i.e., marriage would make a respectable woman out of Julia. Or is it because he respects her he won't be with her? It makes sense in season 6 because she's married, and he doesn't want to label her as an adulteress. But after that, is it because he doesn't want to be with the woman who will become his wife until she is his wife? He has fun with less respectable girls, but has never compromised his wife? I find it interesting that you say religious truth Snacky. I thought religion was all about belief as nothing is indisputable. I think William views Julia as respectable. He has a rather warped (rose coloured glasses?) view of her. Obviously for the time she wasn't. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 14, 2014 1:14:39 GMT
I find it interesting that you say religious truth Snacky. I thought religion was all about belief as nothing is indisputable. I think William views Julia as respectable. He has a rather warped (rose coloured glasses?) view of her. Obviously for the time she wasn't. The Vatican did come out with Papal Infallibility in the late 19th century: so they obviously still believed in the superiority of religious truth. Yet there were no more Galileo's or Bruno's or Great Witch Hunts. The Church let scientific authority go: the secular world developed with multiple, competing sources of authority. The time period William lived in was a particularly rough one for people of genuine faith. If William could make that accommodation between religion and science with his no-conflicts-allowed mind, then he also had the mental equipment to do the fast shuffling required to fit Julia in with traditional Victorian society and his Catholic beliefs. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 14, 2014 3:13:35 GMT
She wasn't upset that William was having dreams of being seduced by Eva because she knew exactly what she was and how she used men. She knew William wasn't interested in Eva on a conscious level and he had no control over his subconscious. There's also a trick of TV show subjectivity going on here, just like the memory of The Green Muse. We saw William thinking about Eva, and we know he related his dream to Julia - but we don't know the exact details he related. He may not have gone as far as what we saw going on in his inner thoughts!  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 14, 2014 3:30:22 GMT
I may have a particular thing for William without his suit coat (i.e. his vest) and his shirt sleeves rolled up. It's hot. Not the same as just his undershirt hot, but perhaps even hotter in a special way. Perhaps it's because propriety has been breached. Absolutely love William in his vest and shirt sleeves. Love the cut of the vest, very form fitting and yet still fully dressed. I'll take a fully dressed lithe man in a well fitting suit to a naked muscle man any day. The thrill is in the imagination. Totally agree-although there's a special thrill at seeing him in just his undershirt at the end of Train to Kingston-maybe it's because of the vulnerability and it's a hint of less than proper William. The occasional illicit peek and the thrill of the imagination is indeed far sexier that it being shoved in your face. Perhaps I'm just Victorian like that. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 14, 2014 3:35:57 GMT
Or is it because he respects her he won't be with her? It makes sense in season 6 because she's married, and he doesn't want to label her as an adulteress. But after that, is it because he doesn't want to be with the woman who will become his wife until she is his wife? He has fun with less respectable girls, but has never compromised his wife? Now there's a paradox: being the instrument of the compromise of your own (future) wife! Which is why Julia has got her work cut out for her. However, now that she's told him that he's a "stick in the mud", perhaps he'll think of a way to sweep her off her feet. William made a lot of progress last season in communicating his thoughts to her, taking her out on the town, and demonstrably showing his feelings to her. Julia will not want to be viewed as just the saintly wife, she's also going to want to be the mistress. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 14, 2014 3:54:03 GMT
Get him on horseback for the full gallant! Absolutely! Everything's better on horseback! Can the tie be off, and the first 2/3 buttons undone? |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 14, 2014 4:00:55 GMT
Now there's a paradox: being the instrument of the compromise of your own (future) wife! Which is why Julia has got her work cut out for her. However, now that she's told him that he's a "stick in the mud", perhaps he'll think of a way to sweep her off her feet. William made a lot of progress last season in communicating his thoughts to her, taking her out on the town, and demonstrably showing his feelings to her. Julia will not want to be viewed as just the saintly wife, she's also going to want to be the mistress. William's been doing a fine job of sweeping Julia off her feet in S7. I think he took his little talk about wondering what he could have done differently to heart and has been putting it into practice. Of course we do have to temper our idea of sweeping her off her feet here, it is William after all. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 14, 2014 4:04:26 GMT
She wasn't upset that William was having dreams of being seduced by Eva because she knew exactly what she was and how she used men. She knew William wasn't interested in Eva on a conscious level and he had no control over his subconscious. There's also a trick of TV show subjectivity going on here, just like the memory of The Green Muse. We saw William thinking about Eva, and we know he related his dream to Julia - but we don't know the exact details he related. He may not have gone as far as what we saw going on in his inner thoughts! It's possible, but Julia does ask him if he "desired her (Eva)" and William says yes. That's a pretty big admission to make to your beloved. And Julia handles it well. But if you watch the first interview with Eva playing William, Julia did not like Eva touching William or taking control of the interview (touching his hand, leaning forward, seductive eye contact) which was noted by Julia's sharp breaths, tight lips, and facial expressions. But maybe she's just satisfied that he admitted that she was right-he had been sort of seduced by Eva Pierce. |
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