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Post by mrsbrisby on Oct 19, 2014 5:36:54 GMT
Yes-I totally agree! Toronto William is cautious and pious and would save himself for marriage-even if his sexual desires seep out despite his best efforts in inappropriate looking at Julia (especially) or other ladies ( to a lesser degree). But yes, TMI hints of a man with some experience. He's just too comfortable being the brash New Yorker named Harry. I like the idea of virgin!William, but I think there's some misspent youth lurking there. William's mentioned he hasn't drank in years (meaning he used to be a drinker) and serious, ambitious boys don't spend years at a logging camp. When does William say he "hasn't drank in years"? The logging camp is the obvious setting for a "misspent youth". But I still think William has always been prudent in some respect and he would have avoided STDs and the getting of children too early. I'm also really curious about whether Jesuit education really was super-ascetic. I don't think William would have slept with the "good girl" Liza - so he was "saving himself for marriage" from that point on. Darn it! Now my mind is whirring. OK. Toronto William is a tight ass and sooo repressed it is almost tragic. I understand that things are changing judging my what we've seen so far. Neverthelss as Fallenbelle and others have mentioned there are those lost years and now that I think about it, Willliam's attitudes about sex may seem like run of the mill repression, but what if he has very deliberately chosen to live like this until the stars align and he can marry the woman he loves? As someone else has suggested, was he a really naughty, exceptionally naughty younger man? Oh dear, here I go sabotaging my own point of view again. Dammit Snacky, it is all your fault! You and your Threads of Angst! By the way I don't like Number 1 and Number 2 is the best one that tallies with the general points in MM, but I don't like it. It would cause Julia to be depressed. William would be lighting candles for the rest of his life for the soul of his baby that would forever be in limbo without a chance to go to heaven. (The Church finally invalidated the doctrine of Limbo in 2007) Anyway, for devout Catholics this was a real heartbreaking event in their lives. I don't like Number 3 either mostly because it would require tons of research into the whole can of worms that is excommunication. The Law Canon is about 4 trillion pages long and is in Latin. Joy. As with everything in the Church there are exceptions, special cases, extenuating circumstances by the hundreds to just about any point of law. It is not as simple as it seems. And of course there are provisions that one can return to the fold if he or she complies with specific remedies. It is a can of worms not to be opened. Run away! Run away! |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 5:37:56 GMT
Ooh, someone help me out here. I know I've heard it recently, but I can't remember it right now.  I've had Catholic friends and I agree Catholicism isn't good enough a reason. Piety would be, however, but the question is, has William always been as pious? Even Martin Luther had a profligate youth before he had a near-death experience that caused him to become an ascetic monk who just couldn't be pious enough before he made his realizations that turned Europe upside down. Plus, Didn't Eddie and William reminisce about getting in trouble as schoolboys? He wasn't always as serious as he is now. I agree - we should find out more specifically what "Jesuit education" means. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 5:41:36 GMT
Dammit Snacky, it is all your fault! You and your Threads of Angst! It is a can of worms not to be opened. Run away! Run away! LOL! And I'm working out another angsty idea right now as we speak.... oops...  Sorry, my brain just rolls that way. But it is because I'm convinced that angst creates great explosive "resolutions" in the end.  |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 13:09:13 GMT
Bonjour! You are welcome here! Several people believe William is a virgin, and we love to argue over it! My friend who is a Catholic, though, does not believe religion would stand in his way. Could you explain more why being a Catholic would encourage William to remain a virgin? I think it is the fact that he was raised by Jesuits and if they provided any kind of sex education at all, it probably would have been heavy on the no premarital relations message. Keep youself pure, etc. He lived with them in is formative years and I think he took them at their word. Now that I've said that I will reprise a question I have had since I first saw The Murdoch Identity. He knew exactly what he was doing when he made a move on Anna and there wasn't the slightest hesitation. This raises questions among other things. Could his behavior be and indication of the way he behaved during the lost years that have been mentioned? He has always behaved more naturally with Anna than with Julia (until now, of course) So is that the real William Murdoch or is Toronto William the real one? Not sure that I haven't torpedoed my own argument, but it is something to think about. I love this particular tumbleweed argument! Perhaps the answer to whether or not Wm took the Jesuits teachings to heart has everything to do with WHEN he was with the Jesuits. Was that before or after his time at the logging camp? In the "logger before the Jesuits" timeline, an angry, grieving, hormone driven 17 year old William may very likely have found solace in the arms of one or two of the camp followers. Didn't Suzanna say that he left home at 17 for the logging camps? I also think that he would have been a GORGEOUS young man that the women would have found impossible to resist so they would be fighting amongst themselves for the honour of deflowering him. He would have had excellent tutelage!! There is also a different take on the self preservation argument. If William was not having sex, at least occasionally, then the other loggers would start wondering if he preferred men and that would get ugly fast for William. After all that, the "logger after the Jesuits" timeline makes no sense at all. Why would a now educated William take a labourers job? William told CC Stockton that he'd met a logger who had done a stint as a policeman and that is where he'd gotten the idea. William is a logical guy. He would have saved his earnings so that he could pay for some education then get himself to Toronto. Assuming his wild days are behind him he meets and courts Liza, a good Catholic girl, so definitely no nookie until marriage with her. (This does not preclude engaging in any almost but not quite behaviour!) He nursed a broken heart after Liza died and that is when he met Julia. We don't even have to get into the did he or didn't he with Julia or Anna because I believe his virginity was lost while he was a logger. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Oct 19, 2014 13:29:43 GMT
I think it is the fact that he was raised by Jesuits and if they provided any kind of sex education at all, it probably would have been heavy on the no premarital relations message. Keep youself pure, etc. He lived with them in is formative years and I think he took them at their word. Now that I've said that I will reprise a question I have had since I first saw The Murdoch Identity. He knew exactly what he was doing when he made a move on Anna and there wasn't the slightest hesitation. This raises questions among other things. Could his behavior be and indication of the way he behaved during the lost years that have been mentioned? He has always behaved more naturally with Anna than with Julia (until now, of course) So is that the real William Murdoch or is Toronto William the real one? Not sure that I haven't torpedoed my own argument, but it is something to think about. I love this particular tumbleweed argument! Perhaps the answer to whether or not Wm took the Jesuits teachings to heart has everything to do with WHEN he was with the Jesuits. Was that before or after his time at the logging camp? In the "logger before the Jesuits" timeline, an angry, grieving, hormone driven 17 year old William may very likely have found solace in the arms of one or two of the camp followers. Didn't Suzanna say that he left home at 17 for the logging camps? I also think that he would have been a GORGEOUS young man that the women would have found impossible to resist so they would be fighting amongst themselves for the honour of deflowering him. He would have had excellent tutelage!! There is also a different take on the self preservation argument. If William was not having sex, at least occasionally, then the other loggers would start wondering if he preferred men and that would get ugly fast for William. After all that, the "logger after the Jesuits" timeline makes no sense at all. Why would a now educated William take a labourers job? William told CC Stockton that he'd met a logger who had done a stint as a policeman and that is where he'd gotten the idea. William is a logical guy. He would have saved his earnings so that he could pay for some education then get himself to Toronto. Assuming his wild days are behind him he meets and courts Liza, a good Catholic girl, so definitely no nookie until marriage with her. (This does not preclude engaging in any almost but not quite behaviour!) He nursed a broken heart after Liza died and that is when he met Julia. We don't even have to get into the did he or didn't he with Julia or Anna because I believe his virginity was lost while he was a logger. It really is the argument that just won't die, isn't it? Not that it's bad or anything...You're right, getting some sort of education after his stint as laborer with the Jesuits makes more sense than getting an excellent education and then wasting it by being a manual laborer. I've always wanted more of an explanation on this subject. It just doesn't add up. I agree that William remaining a cautious, sexually pure young man would definitely put him as odds in that sort of hyper-masculine environment. Plus, as we've noticed, William's a looker, and probably had more than a few girls offer themselves to him. Was it as common as it would be today, perhaps no. But it did happen-Julia engaging in sex as a college student is a prime example. Just as much today, people made dumb decisions when it came to sex-some were lucky and got off relatively free, others paid a tremendous price. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 14:15:40 GMT
It really is the argument that just won't die, isn't it? Not that it's bad or anything...You're right, getting some sort of education after his stint as laborer with the Jesuits makes more sense than getting an excellent education and then wasting it by being a manual laborer. I've always wanted more of an explanation on this subject. It just doesn't add up. I agree that William remaining a cautious, sexually pure young man would definitely put him as odds in that sort of hyper-masculine environment. Plus, as we've noticed, William's a looker, and probably had more than a few girls offer themselves to him. Was it as common as it would be today, perhaps no. But it did happen-Julia engaging in sex as a college student is a prime example. Just as much today, people made dumb decisions when it came to sex-some were lucky and got off relatively free, others paid a tremendous price. I'm hoping the episode recalling Williams life before Toronto will answer at least the timeline question. I have serious doubts about getting resolution to the virgin question. MM just loves to keep us guessing, and as snacky likes to point out, that would simply be catering to the shippers and not furthering the strength of the fanbase in general. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 14:33:00 GMT
Another thought...in the books, Maureen keeps William a virgin until he meets Enid, despite the logging camps. I know I'm backtracking on my own argument but it is a pertinent detail.
My feeling is the MM writers have stuck pretty close Maureen's idea of William from the books but they have definitely taken liberties, with her blessing. Our William is MUCH more attractive and they have included those tantalizing details that get the shipper-inclined audience wondering without bothering those who couldn't care less.
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robinzefrenchfan
New Member
Fan of "Les enquêtes de Murdoch - Murdoch Mysteries "
Posts: 5 
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Post by robinzefrenchfan on Oct 19, 2014 15:13:19 GMT
Good evening everybody or Hello everybody, This time I dare to write something. Forgive me if I make some mistakes in English I am really French. On my opinion and according to the episodes I've watched on the french tv (france 3 on sunday evening) and also because Murdoch is Catholic and religious, I think he is a virgin. He seems to be more conservative than Julia. Of course I could be wrong. Bye. Bonjour! You are welcome here! Several people believe William is a virgin, and we love to argue over it! My friend who is a Catholic, though, does not believe religion would stand in his way. Could you explain more why being a Catholic would encourage William to remain a virgin? |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 15:33:57 GMT
Good evening everybody or Hello everybody, This time I dare to write something. Forgive me if I make some mistakes in English I am really French. On my opinion and according to the episodes I've watched on the french tv (france 3 on sunday evening) and also because Murdoch is Catholic and religious, I think he is a virgin. He seems to be more conservative than Julia. Of course I could be wrong. Bye. William is definitely more conservative than Julia. That is the source of much of snacky's beloved angst and so much about why we love his character. He is a paradox...a man who thinks outside the box in his work but who is so rigid with his interpretation of the law and adherence to his beliefs. Over the last few seasons he has made a tremendous shift away from his rigidity. I'm not certain that William's Catholicism, in and of itself, is necessarily a reason to conclude, absolutely, that he is a virgin. Even in 1902 lots of Catholics ignored that dictate. William even confessed to his priest in season 1 "Till Death Do Us Part" that he didn't know if he could blindly follow the Church's teachings anymore. I'm curious. Have you seen up to the end of season 7? |
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robinzefrenchfan
New Member
Fan of "Les enquêtes de Murdoch - Murdoch Mysteries "
Posts: 5
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Post by robinzefrenchfan on Oct 19, 2014 15:41:42 GMT
Bonjour,
I have to apologize, I put my previous explaination in the last edit section.
My wife doesn't share my point of view.
She thinks he is not a virgin.
To me he is the best investigator, a great detective, in his job he is perfect. A great scientist, very clever, innovative.
In his personal life, he is different, he is sometimes shy with the lady he loves.
I think his love for Julia is so strong he could wait until they get married.
Of course I've never been pupil in a Jesuit'school and especially not in this preiod.
I've always been in Marist'schools but in the eighties.
As I told you earlier, my wife disagrees with me, so I could be totally wrong.
Best regards.
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 16:04:29 GMT
Bonjour, I have to apologize, I put my previous explaination in the last edit section. My wife doesn't share my point of view. She thinks he is not a virgin. To me he is the best investigator, a great detective, in his job he is perfect. A great scientist, very clever, innovative. In his personal life, he is different, he is sometimes shy with the lady he loves. I think his love for Julia is so strong he could wait until they get married. Of course I've never been pupil in a Jesuit'school and especially not in this preiod. I've always been in Marist'schools but in the eighties. As I told you earlier, my wife disagrees with me, so I could be totally wrong. Best regards. How fascinating to have both viewpoints in one household. As a group, we have debated the virgin issue both separately and together with respect to Julia. Our group is divided into three basic camps: 1) William is a virgin, 2) William is not a virgin but he and Julia have NOT been together, and 3) William is not a virgin and he HAS been with Julia early in their relationship but not since, and he has possibly been with Anna. Many would agree with your statement "I think his love for Julia is so strong he could wait until they get married." For myself, I think what you've said is partly true. They were together early on but they have refrained from sex since they rekindled their romantic relationship after Julia and Darcy parted. He does love her that much. All opinions are welcome! Is your wife interested in joining us too? |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Oct 19, 2014 16:04:46 GMT
Bonjour, I have to apologize, I put my previous explaination in the last edit section. My wife doesn't share my point of view. She thinks he is not a virgin. To me he is the best investigator, a great detective, in his job he is perfect. A great scientist, very clever, innovative. In his personal life, he is different, he is sometimes shy with the lady he loves. I think his love for Julia is so strong he could wait until they get married. Of course I've never been pupil in a Jesuit'school and especially not in this preiod. I've always been in Marist'schools but in the eighties. As I told you earlier, my wife disagrees with me, so I could be totally wrong. Best regards. Bonjour! That is indeed the paradox that William's character presents and part of the reason this show is so fun! Welcome aboard! |
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Post by Hodge on Oct 19, 2014 16:25:32 GMT
Ooh, someone help me out here. I know I've heard it recently, but I can't remember it right now. Plus, Didn't Eddie and William reminisce about getting in trouble as schoolboys? He wasn't always as serious as he is now. I remember him saying something to that effect and that he wasn't going to start now or something like that. Don't remember what episode to even check it but it was when Brackenreid wanted him to have a drink. Eddie, and William, made comments about the troubles they got into, Eddie did comment about William believing the body was a temple though. I suspect he became more serious when Liza was ill then died and he was on the fast track to becoming a detective. |
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Post by mrsbrisby on Oct 19, 2014 16:31:56 GMT
I love this particular tumbleweed argument! Perhaps the answer to whether or not Wm took the Jesuits teachings to heart has everything to do with WHEN he was with the Jesuits. Was that before or after his time at the logging camp? In the "logger before the Jesuits" timeline, an angry, grieving, hormone driven 17 year old William may very likely have found solace in the arms of one or two of the camp followers. Didn't Suzanna say that he left home at 17 for the logging camps? I also think that he would have been a GORGEOUS young man that the women would have found impossible to resist so they would be fighting amongst themselves for the honour of deflowering him. He would have had excellent tutelage!! There is also a different take on the self preservation argument. If William was not having sex, at least occasionally, then the other loggers would start wondering if he preferred men and that would get ugly fast for William. After all that, the "logger after the Jesuits" timeline makes no sense at all. Why would a now educated William take a labourers job? William told CC Stockton that he'd met a logger who had done a stint as a policeman and that is where he'd gotten the idea. William is a logical guy. He would have saved his earnings so that he could pay for some education then get himself to Toronto. Assuming his wild days are behind him he meets and courts Liza, a good Catholic girl, so definitely no nookie until marriage with her. (This does not preclude engaging in any almost but not quite behaviour!) He nursed a broken heart after Liza died and that is when he met Julia. We don't even have to get into the did he or didn't he with Julia or Anna because I believe his virginity was lost while he was a logger. It really is the argument that just won't die, isn't it? Not that it's bad or anything...You're right, getting some sort of education after his stint as laborer with the Jesuits makes more sense than getting an excellent education and then wasting it by being a manual laborer. I've always wanted more of an explanation on this subject. It just doesn't add up. I agree that William remaining a cautious, sexually pure young man would definitely put him as odds in that sort of hyper-masculine environment. Plus, as we've noticed, William's a looker, and probably had more than a few girls offer themselves to him. Was it as common as it would be today, perhaps no. But it did happen-Julia engaging in sex as a college student is a prime example. Just as much today, people made dumb decisions when it came to sex-some were lucky and got off relatively free, others paid a tremendous price. I hate to sound so pedantic but the reality of lumber camps in the eastern part of Canada was not at all like gold camps--there was no going to town on Saturdays. The men in the camps had no contact with the outside world until the lumber was floated downstream in the spring. The Canadian Encyclopedia describes lumbering: Timber making was hard, demanding work. Each autumn gangs of "lumberers," as they were called before the term "lumberjack" came into use, went into the woods and built log shanty camps. They had no stoves. Their fires for cooking, illumination, and for heat during the winter were simple stone hearths in the middle of the floor. There was a hole in the roof for the smoke. They worked six days a week from dawn to dark. They had to make their own amusement, perhaps a bit of fiddle music and storytelling on Saturday night and Sunday. They were too far out in the woods to go to town. Another article that uses the food the men consumed provides more info: www.foresthistory.org/Publications/JofFH/Conlin.pdfThis link goes to images of the camps. www.google.com/search?q=lumber+camps+in+canada&newwindow=1&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4d9DVMlugvbJBMnKgNAI&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653These paint a very stark picture of this way of life and it bears no resemblance to gold camps as depicted in "Murdoch of the Klondike." It is my understanding that William was taken in by the Jesuits who he lived with and who educated him until he was 17 when he left "home" which was Nova Scotia. Suzannah lived with nuns in a convent, but she and William saw each other when they were young. It's difficult when there are essentially three sources of information on our beloved characters. It seems that sometimes our MM follows the books and sometimes it doesn't, so which source do we rely on? A back story for William would be very helpful here, but I guess we will have to piece one together as the series goes along. It is that we do not know these characters's histories that helps make them so intriguing, and I for one love the variations on that theme that everyone has created and that in turn is what keeps this thread going. |
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Post by mrsbrisby on Oct 19, 2014 16:39:57 GMT
Ooh, someone help me out here. I know I've heard it recently, but I can't remember it right now. Plus, Didn't Eddie and William reminisce about getting in trouble as schoolboys? He wasn't always as serious as he is now. I remember him saying something to that effect and that he wasn't going to start now or something like that. Don't remember what episode to even check it but it was when Brackenreid wanted him to have a drink. Eddie, and William, made comments about the troubles they got into, Eddie did comment about William believing the body was a temple though. I suspect he became more serious when Liza was ill then died and he was on the fast track to becoming a detective. Eddie was in the episode with the Prince of Wales, Season 1 "The Rebel and the Prince." |
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