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Post by Hodge on Oct 19, 2014 16:41:03 GMT
I remember him saying something to that effect and that he wasn't going to start now or something like that. Don't remember what episode to even check it but it was when Brackenreid wanted him to have a drink. Eddie, and William, made comments about the troubles they got into, Eddie did comment about William believing the body was a temple though. I suspect he became more serious when Liza was ill then died and he was on the fast track to becoming a detective. Eddie was in the episode with the Prince of Wales, Season 1 "The Rebel and the Prince." Yes, but I'm not sure this was the episode that William said he quit drinking in. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 17:26:30 GMT
I hate to sound so pedantic but the reality of lumber camps in the eastern part of Canada was not at all like gold camps--there was no going to town on Saturdays. The men in the camps had no contact with the outside world until the lumber was floated downstream in the spring. The Canadian Encyclopedia describes lumbering: Timber making was hard, demanding work. Each autumn gangs of "lumberers," as they were called before the term "lumberjack" came into use, went into the woods and built log shanty camps. They had no stoves. Their fires for cooking, illumination, and for heat during the winter were simple stone hearths in the middle of the floor. There was a hole in the roof for the smoke. They worked six days a week from dawn to dark. They had to make their own amusement, perhaps a bit of fiddle music and storytelling on Saturday night and Sunday. They were too far out in the woods to go to town. Another article that uses the food the men consumed provides more info: www.foresthistory.org/Publications/JofFH/Conlin.pdfThis link goes to images of the camps. www.google.com/search?q=lumber+camps+in+canada&newwindow=1&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4d9DVMlugvbJBMnKgNAI&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653These paint a very stark picture of this way of life and it bears no resemblance to gold camps as depicted in "Murdoch of the Klondike." It is my understanding that William was taken in by the Jesuits who he lived with and who educated him until he was 17 when he left "home" which was Nova Scotia. Suzannah lived with nuns in a convent, but she and William saw each other when they were young. It's difficult when there are essentially three sources of information on our beloved characters. It seems that sometimes our MM follows the books and sometimes it doesn't, so which source do we rely on? A back story for William would be very helpful here, but I guess we will have to piece one together as the series goes along. It is that we do not know these characters's histories that helps make them so intriguing, and I for one love the variations on that theme that everyone has created and that in turn is what keeps this thread going. I completely agree with you that conditions in the logging camps were much different than in the Klondike, but historically, anywhere men go there are at least a few women, from the crusades through the Civil War. ...and now I'll backtrack on my own argument...William would definitely not engage with those women. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 18:10:32 GMT
I think it is the fact that he was raised by Jesuits and if they provided any kind of sex education at all, it probably would have been heavy on the no premarital relations message. Keep youself pure, etc. He lived with them in is formative years and I think he took them at their word. Now that I've said that I will reprise a question I have had since I first saw The Murdoch Identity. He knew exactly what he was doing when he made a move on Anna and there wasn't the slightest hesitation. This raises questions among other things. Could his behavior be and indication of the way he behaved during the lost years that have been mentioned? He has always behaved more naturally with Anna than with Julia (until now, of course) So is that the real William Murdoch or is Toronto William the real one? Not sure that I haven't torpedoed my own argument, but it is something to think about. I love this particular tumbleweed argument! Perhaps the answer to whether or not Wm took the Jesuits teachings to heart has everything to do with WHEN he was with the Jesuits. Was that before or after his time at the logging camp? In the "logger before the Jesuits" timeline, an angry, grieving, hormone driven 17 year old William may very likely have found solace in the arms of one or two of the camp followers. Didn't Suzanna say that he left home at 17 for the logging camps? I also think that he would have been a GORGEOUS young man that the women would have found impossible to resist so they would be fighting amongst themselves for the honour of deflowering him. He would have had excellent tutelage!! There is also a different take on the self preservation argument. If William was not having sex, at least occasionally, then the other loggers would start wondering if he preferred men and that would get ugly fast for William. After all that, the "logger after the Jesuits" timeline makes no sense at all. Why would a now educated William take a labourers job? William told CC Stockton that he'd met a logger who had done a stint as a policeman and that is where he'd gotten the idea. William is a logical guy. He would have saved his earnings so that he could pay for some education then get himself to Toronto. Assuming his wild days are behind him he meets and courts Liza, a good Catholic girl, so definitely no nookie until marriage with her. (This does not preclude engaging in any almost but not quite behaviour!) He nursed a broken heart after Liza died and that is when he met Julia. We don't even have to get into the did he or didn't he with Julia or Anna because I believe his virginity was lost while he was a logger. I believe the logging camp is after the Jesuits. As I understand it, William wasn't studying to become a Jesuit (college). William was taught *by* Jesuits as a child (practically an orphan if his daddy was off fishing). Jesuits had an excellent reputation for children's schools. If you want to learn about them Judith Rock writes a terrific series of mysteries about a ballet-teaching "detective". Not as fey as it sounds since ballet is section of rhetoric in the Jesuit curriculum. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 18:23:58 GMT
You're right, getting some sort of education after his stint as laborer with the Jesuits makes more sense than getting an excellent education and then wasting it by being a manual laborer. I've always wanted more of an explanation on this subject. It just doesn't add up. It also doesn't add up for me because it undermines the whole notion of William being a "self-made man" without higher education, struggling to hold his own in the middle class against people with a formal education. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 18:30:41 GMT
You're right, getting some sort of education after his stint as laborer with the Jesuits makes more sense than getting an excellent education and then wasting it by being a manual laborer. I've always wanted more of an explanation on this subject. It just doesn't add up. It also doesn't add up for me because it undermines the whole notion of William being a "self-made man" without higher education, struggling to hold his own in the middle class against people with a formal education. I'm so confused  . How the heck are we supposed to go hog-wild with speculation if we can't even nail down basic facts?? We need that retrospective ep ASAP! |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 18:32:05 GMT
I have serious doubts about getting resolution to the virgin question. MM just loves to keep us guessing, and as snacky likes to point out, that would simply be catering to the shippers and not furthering the strength of the fanbase in general. I would be seriously disappointed in the wisdom of the MM writers if they tipped their hand on the virgin question. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 18:36:37 GMT
Our William is MUCH more attractive and they have included those tantalizing details that get the shipper-inclined audience wondering without bothering those who couldn't care less. I think it's more than attractiveness. Yannick is a pretty physically active man, and I think he just can't resist throwing out those virility vibes, however he does it. That's part of what makes the Virgin Theory implausible - and rather laughable - to a large segment of the audience. They pick up on those subliminal cues, and they aren't going to ignore what their eyes are telling them. |
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Post by mrsbrisby on Oct 19, 2014 18:49:59 GMT
I hate to sound so pedantic but the reality of lumber camps in the eastern part of Canada was not at all like gold camps--there was no going to town on Saturdays. The men in the camps had no contact with the outside world until the lumber was floated downstream in the spring. The Canadian Encyclopedia describes lumbering: Timber making was hard, demanding work. Each autumn gangs of "lumberers," as they were called before the term "lumberjack" came into use, went into the woods and built log shanty camps. They had no stoves. Their fires for cooking, illumination, and for heat during the winter were simple stone hearths in the middle of the floor. There was a hole in the roof for the smoke. They worked six days a week from dawn to dark. They had to make their own amusement, perhaps a bit of fiddle music and storytelling on Saturday night and Sunday. They were too far out in the woods to go to town. Another article that uses the food the men consumed provides more info: www.foresthistory.org/Publications/JofFH/Conlin.pdfThis link goes to images of the camps. www.google.com/search?q=lumber+camps+in+canada&newwindow=1&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4d9DVMlugvbJBMnKgNAI&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=653These paint a very stark picture of this way of life and it bears no resemblance to gold camps as depicted in "Murdoch of the Klondike." It is my understanding that William was taken in by the Jesuits who he lived with and who educated him until he was 17 when he left "home" which was Nova Scotia. Suzannah lived with nuns in a convent, but she and William saw each other when they were young. It's difficult when there are essentially three sources of information on our beloved characters. It seems that sometimes our MM follows the books and sometimes it doesn't, so which source do we rely on? A back story for William would be very helpful here, but I guess we will have to piece one together as the series goes along. It is that we do not know these characters's histories that helps make them so intriguing, and I for one love the variations on that theme that everyone has created and that in turn is what keeps this thread going. I completely agree with you that conditions in the logging camps were much different than in the Klondike, but historically, anywhere men go there are at least a few women, from the crusades through the Civil War. ...and now I'll backtrack on my own argument...William would definitely not engage with those women. You are right about camp followers throughout history, but the Canadian lumber camps were the exception to the rule. They were located in remote parts of the forests where there were no roads, no access whatsoever. The men built roads and paths to move logs along in the fall then cut and positioned the logs to be floated downstream in the spring. There simply was no access in or out for men or women. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 18:50:05 GMT
I have serious doubts about getting resolution to the virgin question. MM just loves to keep us guessing, and as snacky likes to point out, that would simply be catering to the shippers and not furthering the strength of the fanbase in general. I would be seriously disappointed in the wisdom of the MM writers if they tipped their hand on the virgin question. So would I. It's way more fun to speculate. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 18:56:21 GMT
Our William is MUCH more attractive and they have included those tantalizing details that get the shipper-inclined audience wondering without bothering those who couldn't care less. I think it's more than attractiveness. Yannick is a pretty physically active man, and I think he just can't resist throwing out those virility vibes, however he does it. That's part of what makes the Virgin Theory implausible - and rather laughable - to a large segment of the audience. They pick up on those subliminal cues, and they aren't going to ignore what their eyes are telling them. How true. That man exudes hot but in such an understated way then add to that everything we know about Yannick the wonderful father, husband and otherwise amazing human being. Definitely a case of our eyes influencing our brains...animal instinct. Yum! |
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Post by mrsbrisby on Oct 19, 2014 18:57:36 GMT
We don't even have to get into the did he or didn't he with Julia or Anna because I believe his virginity was lost while he was a logger. I believe the logging camp is after the Jesuits. As I understand it, William wasn't studying to become a Jesuit (college). William was taught *by* Jesuits as a child (practically an orphan if his daddy was off fishing). Jesuits had an excellent reputation for children's schools. If you want to learn about them Judith Rock writes a terrific series of mysteries about a ballet-teaching "detective". Not as fey as it sounds since ballet is section of rhetoric in the Jesuit curriculum. OK, that must be in the books I have yet to read about him studying to be a priest. Don't get me started but, William would be a very attractive Jesuit. Oh my. ( Forgive me Father, for I have sinned ...) I thought that he essentially went through high school before he left the Jesuits. Jesuits are just about the best teachers in the world and it is a hallmark of their order. It's just those black cassocks ... |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 18:59:23 GMT
William is definitely more conservative than Julia. That is the source of much of snacky's beloved angst and so much about why we love his character. He is a paradox...a man who thinks outside the box in his work but who is so rigid with his interpretation of the law and adherence to his beliefs. Over the last few seasons he has made a tremendous shift away from his rigidity. I'm not certain that William's Catholicism, in and of itself, is necessarily a reason to conclude, absolutely, that he is a virgin. Even in 1902 lots of Catholics ignored that dictate. William even confessed to his priest in season 1 "Till Death Do Us Part" that he didn't know if he could blindly follow the Church's teachings anymore. I'm curious. Have you seen up to the end of season 7? IF William is a virgin, I would agree there are more good reasons than just the imperatives of Catholic belief. For instance, he would be very cautious about his future in avoiding STDs from dollymops and avoiding getting children before he had the means to support a family. |
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Post by lovemondays on Oct 19, 2014 19:01:18 GMT
I believe the logging camp is after the Jesuits. As I understand it, William wasn't studying to become a Jesuit (college). William was taught *by* Jesuits as a child (practically an orphan if his daddy was off fishing). Jesuits had an excellent reputation for children's schools. If you want to learn about them Judith Rock writes a terrific series of mysteries about a ballet-teaching "detective". Not as fey as it sounds since ballet is section of rhetoric in the Jesuit curriculum. OK, that must be in the books I have yet to read about him studying to be a priest. Don't get me started but, William would be a very attractive Jesuit. Oh my. ( Forgive me Father, for I have sinned ...) I thought that he essentially went through high school before he left the Jesuits. Jesuits are just about the best teachers in the world and it is a hallmark of their order. It's just those black cassocks ... I think I'm going to have to go back and read at least the first book. There's talk on the FB page that Maureen's novella, Shipwreck, is the basis for the ep on William's backstory. Apparently it's available on Kobo but hard copies are hard to find. |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 19:05:06 GMT
Bonjour, I have to apologize, I put my previous explaination in the last edit section. My wife doesn't share my point of view. She thinks he is not a virgin. To me he is the best investigator, a great detective, in his job he is perfect. A great scientist, very clever, innovative. In his personal life, he is different, he is sometimes shy with the lady he loves. I think his love for Julia is so strong he could wait until they get married. Of course I've never been pupil in a Jesuit'school and especially not in this preiod. I've always been in Marist'schools but in the eighties. As I told you earlier, my wife disagrees with me, so I could be totally wrong. Best regards. Ooh la la - lafemme thinks differently? There's some spicy MM discussion in your household!  You think just on the basis of personal shyness/personality he's still a virgin? I think that's as valid an argument as any. William was certainly more shy/introverted in Season 1 in early Seasons. I thought Yannick Bisson was originally playing him as if he were on the Asperger's spectrum. So extreme shyness could keep a virgin. We'll see how he behaves at the logger camp!  |
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Post by snacky on Oct 19, 2014 19:13:05 GMT
I remember him saying something to that effect and that he wasn't going to start now or something like that. Don't remember what episode to even check it but it was when Brackenreid wanted him to have a drink. Eddie, and William, made comments about the troubles they got into, Eddie did comment about William believing the body was a temple though. I suspect he became more serious when Liza was ill then died and he was on the fast track to becoming a detective. I believe this was in a latter season episode, which would probably make the absinthe episode the last time William had a drink (excluding the Out of William experience in TMI). Which would mean William wasn't drinking anything alcoholic in the Yukon...? |
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. How the heck are we supposed to go hog-wild with speculation if we can't even nail down basic facts?? We need that retrospective ep ASAP!
