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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Nov 26, 2014 3:02:41 GMT
Wow that just makes the whole thing even funnier!  What did I say about William buying one for Julia for Christmas? He's building her one! I'm waiting for the scene where the lads are standing around it, discussing what it is, perhaps even testing it out, and being puzzled as to why the women seem to like it so much.  |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:11:52 GMT
Yeah, I think I posted it somewhere around page 8/9, and it was indeed enlightening and very interesting. I loved the ep, don't get me wrong. But, I'm getting more and more concerned for Julia's character. I really don't see why to be any more concerned about Julia's character than at the start of Season 5. She's been "arm candy" this whole time. It still seems to me that you are succumbing to post-marriage panic, which is punishing Peter Mitchell for "pulling the trigger". The onus is now on Peter Mitchell and the other writers to prove that "pulling the trigger" on the marriage did not kill MM - and I don't think killing Julia or otherwise writing her out of the show would disprove the Moonlighting Curse: it would verify it. Though bookworm did I think accidentally offer up a good way to kill off Julia some day don't kill me: make her the Dead Person in an MM version of DOA. Ugh, that might kill William, too. Dang you bookworm for making that a mindworm! You better write that as a fanfic!
Dear MM writers: if you even think of doing that, it better be the last episode of MM, and William had better die, too! And it better be after several hundred episodes when it's time for MM to retire! 
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:14:29 GMT
What did I say about William buying one for Julia for Christmas? He's building her one! I'm waiting for the scene where the lads are standing around it, discussing what it is, perhaps even testing it out, and being puzzled as to why the women seem to like it so much. Being the same lame men of today but in an earlier century, they will probably just keep asking Emily to demonstrate it for them so they can "understand" it better. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 26, 2014 3:17:20 GMT
I completely agree with your assessment of Giles conflicted/guilty feelings being projected on William over the CG affair. He just saw the torture he's lived with for years and let loose with righteous anger toward William on the surface but truly at himself. It makes you appreciate how well Nigel has acted the role. Do you think the character being in the closet ever came up in motivating Nigel's performance? If you go to CBC and watch the "Making of" feature for this episode, a lot of these questions will be answered. The actor who plays Hodge talked about his leaving and it was so well said and so touching I cried. However, the writer did say that they wanted to find a way to bring him back and I support that 100%. I think that this episode provided a way for William to confess what he had done without risking anything. As has been said, only Brax, Giles, and William knew and Stockton is in la-la-land and anything he said would be but down to the ravings of a senile old man. ( Oh, that reminds me--the actor wore his wedding ring in his previous appearances.) Now that he as said it out loud, to use a phrase, it no longer has the power over him that a secret has. Moreover this demonstrates how much William has changed--he used to be pedantic and rigid but thanks to Julia he has seen the world differently and has come to understand that the law sometimes is wrong and unjust. Once he made that decision, he has been able to see the extenuating circumstances in people's lives. . As far as Giles' behavior being inexplicable IMO it was perfectly in keeping with a person who has claimed the moral high ground only to be exposed as a hypocrite. When a person goes through the mental gymnastics it takes to enable them to reconcile, in their own minds, the huge contradiction in their lives, it takes a toll on them. He could not stand it that WM had right on his side when he let CG go because he thought about and made a decision based on what his knowledge of the law, his church, right and wrong, and people in general so it was a conscious deliberate act on William's part. Giles was caught up in the circumstances. Hedidn't decide to be a homosexual, but he was and it was illegal, immoral, and sinful and could be used to execute him. Like William he has a strong sense of right and wrong but by denying his nature he had become more and more narrow--minded he became the less he was able to see the difference between right and wrong, justice and injustice, and lawful and illegal. He did what so many fearful people do in order to protect himself he defined himself in increasingly more black and white terms until what was lawful and what was unlawful was the only touchstone he had. My personal take on why YB doesn't wear a wedding band on the show has to do with his own marriage and I don't think he wanted to blur any lines for himself or anyone else by wearing a ring in MM. I remember Helene Joy say in answer to a fan asking her to rate YB's kisses, "I don't kiss Yannich Bisson, I kiss William Murdoch." In the same way you could look at the wedding ring in the same way and say that Yannick Bisson, the actor as William Murdoch, married Julia Ogden. Yannick Bisson, the man, is married to Chantal. One of the major indications of the difference is that YB the man will wear the ring his wife gave him. YB has no interest in wearing a wedding ring in any other circumstance. Oh, I understand the part about YB not wanting to wear a ring, and I totally respect it. But I'm speaking more of an anachronism-for a time when most men didn't wear wedding rings which was also the reason given for William didn't have one, there have been an awful lot of men wearing wedding rings on MM. Is this just another continuity error? There's a classic Marilyn Monroe movie where one of the characters who is supposed to be a swinging single, is frequently seen with his wedding ring-because the actor forgot to take it off. That's the thing I'm talking about. Also, people combining the actor with the character is a major squick of mine. They're two completely different people! You may or may not notice that I don't often mention actor's names, and I only do so when it's germane to the discussion. For the most part, when I discuss characters, it's George, Julia, William, Brax, etc. That is a major boundary there for me. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:23:27 GMT
I feel sorry for Hodge and Giles, I always liked Hodge. There are suggestions Hodge will be back in some capacity. Perhaps just the occasional guest role like Pendrick or Meyers, though.  Giles is such a great role, played by such a fine actor, that I have trouble believing MM is truly willing to sacrifice that for the sake of one episode, as great as that episode was. My thought is down the road the State will find that he has important information to offer, or good experience, and he will be pulled out of jail by Higher Ups. I don't think he will menace William over Constance Gardner - he was obsessed with that because of his own guilt, and that's over now. (Though it's always possible the Constance Gardner will surface some other way). Next time Giles appears, it might be to call on William as an ally against a greater foe. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:26:15 GMT
Oh, I understand the part about YB not wanting to wear a ring, and I totally respect it. But I'm speaking more of an anachronism-for a time when most men didn't wear wedding rings which was also the reason given for William didn't have one, there have been an awful lot of men wearing wedding rings on MM. Is this just another continuity error? There's a classic Marilyn Monroe movie where one of the characters who is supposed to be a swinging single, is frequently seen with his wedding ring-because the actor forgot to take it off. That's the thing I'm talking about. Also, people combining the actor with the character is a major squick of mine. They're two completely different people! You may or may not notice that I don't often mention actor's names, and I only do so when it's germane to the discussion. For the most part, when I discuss characters, it's George, Julia, William, Brax, etc. That is a major boundary there for me. I think all she's saying is the historical/continuity error might be being caused at YB's insistence: and he's certainly in a powerful enough position to have things his way here. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 26, 2014 3:33:10 GMT
Yeah, I think I posted it somewhere around page 8/9, and it was indeed enlightening and very interesting. I loved the ep, don't get me wrong. But, I'm getting more and more concerned for Julia's character. I really don't see why to be any more concerned about Julia's character than at the start of Season 5. She's been "arm candy" this whole time. It still seems to me that you are succumbing to post-marriage panic, which is punishing Peter Mitchell for "pulling the trigger". The onus is now on Peter Mitchell and the other writers to prove that "pulling the trigger" on the marriage did not kill MM - and I don't think killing Julia or otherwise writing her out of the show would disprove the Moonlighting Curse: it would verify it. Though bookworm did I think accidentally offer up a good way to kill off Julia some day don't kill me: make her the Dead Person in an MM version of DOA. Ugh, that might kill William, too. Dang you bookworm for making that a mindworm! You better write that as a fanfic!
Dear MM writers: if you even think of doing that, it better be the last episode of MM, and William had better die, too! And it better be after several hundred episodes when it's time for MM to retire!
While you may hate psychology, she has worked with William using her profiling skills and has helped solved cases on seasons 6 and 7. While she lost some of her more natural integration when she left the morgue, there was an attempt to keep her in the loop and involved in the cases. But not so in season 8. I agree that the psychology plot has played out, and now the shows at a loss as to play her. I don't even accept the suffragette movement as that great of a character arc, because it's William's wife who's campaigning for office, not Dr. Ogden. Dr. Ogden, BAMF, is gone. The longer they keep her as arm candy, the less likely the show seems to do anything to repair their mistake. And that makes me sad. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 26, 2014 3:35:36 GMT
Oh, I understand the part about YB not wanting to wear a ring, and I totally respect it. But I'm speaking more of an anachronism-for a time when most men didn't wear wedding rings which was also the reason given for William didn't have one, there have been an awful lot of men wearing wedding rings on MM. Is this just another continuity error? There's a classic Marilyn Monroe movie where one of the characters who is supposed to be a swinging single, is frequently seen with his wedding ring-because the actor forgot to take it off. That's the thing I'm talking about. Also, people combining the actor with the character is a major squick of mine. They're two completely different people! You may or may not notice that I don't often mention actor's names, and I only do so when it's germane to the discussion. For the most part, when I discuss characters, it's George, Julia, William, Brax, etc. That is a major boundary there for me. I think all she's saying is the historical/continuity error might be being caused at YB's insistence: and he's certainly in a powerful enough position to have things his way here. Which I totally get. But why is the show going to let so many actors wear their rings? I'm not arguing the decision, I'm arguing the continuity! |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:43:20 GMT
Just because it's fan service doesn't mean it's bad. Last night's ep for example. Lots of people have been suggesting for ages about a William/Giles standoff. Well, we got one heck of a show out of that fan service last night. Thank you for bringing this up. I've been steaming over the idea that loving MM and discussing the show here puts us all on a plane with creepy fan stalkers just because we like to discuss relationship plots, too! Fans can and do discuss a range of things, and writers respond to a range of fan sentiments, not just "shipper demands". (Is there anyone who participates on this board who doesn't agree that MM would in fact suck of MM writers constantly caved to "shipper demands"). I'm once again also guilty here, because I'm the one who started applying the term "fan service" - this is a term used in anime that specifically refers to scenes inserted for the fans (usually love/romance) that do nothing to advance the plot. I thought it was high meta art in Glory Days. But now it seems I've created a monster in not only giving a cheap label with which to condemn any show which even has Julia in it - by naming the "crime" taking place, I've "criminalized" this whole forum as the mere shippers being "fan serviced". I'm not happy about this.  Talbotrail's views restore balance to the force.  |
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Post by ziggy on Nov 26, 2014 3:43:45 GMT
Sorry I’m a bit late on this but my thoughts anyway. I thought it was excellent and very cleverly put together – the plot, the script and the acting all came together very well.
I was surprised to see Stockton “away with the fairies”. I liked this Stockton better than the previous times and the guy did a great job playing the role and providing vital clues that steered William toward the solution. I learned a lot about him in this one episode than I did all these years and I saw him in a totally different light. Sad as his situation now is, he took the mantle from Brax and provided the humor for me. I wonder what happened to him – an accident or he simply fell ill? To be so obviously befuddled by short-term memory and yet quite strong in long-term memory.
And Giles. What can I say about him. Great performance. I liked the guy before now but I never thought a day would come that I will feel compassion for him. The interrogation scenes with William were powerful and intense. The moment of realization that William had pieced it all together and it was all over, the fight left him. I saw him struggle with the urge to fall on his knees and beg William to take him instead and let the killer go. It was an extraordinary moment to see him so vulnerable. My heart went out to him. In fact all these strong men of power, wisdom and many layers to them, Stockton, Giles, Murdoch, all came up like mere mortals, so vulnerable and human, capable of getting hurt and feeling pain brought upon them by the circumstances of life just like everyone else.
Hodge. Oh Hodge! I didn’t see that coming at all, not until Giles mentioned Dodger, his dog. My mouth fell open in disbelief. When they brought him in to tell him his secret was no more, my heart broke for him and the tears welled up in my eyes. It’s hard to imagine looking through the windows and not seeing Hodge hovering in the background of SH4. Sitting there huddled close to William and going over what had happened, I felt for them both. It sounded strange when he called William by name but I could understand that he too had his moment of despair and hopelessness as his world shattered all around him. Spending even a week in jail is no easy feat for anyone, let alone someone not criminally inclined. William seemingly looking straight into his soul not knowing what to do to shield him from it all.
It was good that Brax reassured William of his decision to choose justice over the law and that his decision was the right one, not only for CG but also for him Brax. Hopefully, that should bring some closure and comfort for William knowing that there is at least one person on earth that understands and appreciates what he did.
George came up with the goods once again with his ace investigating skills. Henry too did well and for once didn’t complain about his assignments or try to get out of them.
There was so much about this episode that I will remember for a long time. It brought up so many emotions in me just like the Wonderland episode did. I am not surprised it surfaced again several years later in another epic.
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Post by ziggy on Nov 26, 2014 3:48:17 GMT
OMG! I thoroughly enjoyed this. I am off to celebrate and I'll be back at some point in the future to share my thoughts. Tra la la la la...... !!!! Yay!! Ziggy got what she wanted. To be honest, if anyone doesn't like this ep then they shouldn't be watching MM! I accept your pat on the back and I am still smiling . I could use a couple like this every season and perhaps some like the Invention Convention or Confederate Treasure and I'll be a happy camper. Ha ha ha... I'm not asking for much am I ? |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:51:12 GMT
While you may hate psychology, she has worked with William using her profiling skills and has helped solved cases on seasons 6 and 7. While she lost some of her more natural integration when she left the morgue, there was an attempt to keep her in the loop and involved in the cases. But not so in season 8. I agree that the psychology plot has played out, and now the shows at a loss as to play her. I don't even accept the suffragette movement as that great of a character arc, because it's William's wife who's campaigning for office, not Dr. Ogden. Dr. Ogden, BAMF, is gone. The longer they keep her as arm candy, the less likely the show seems to do anything to repair their mistake. And that makes me sad. When Julia helped solved cases in season 6 and 7, I always felt William clapped a little too hard. He was like the Julia Ogden Appreciation Society, reassuring her that she was still needed. I still think you're suffering from post-marriage panic, though. With the UST gone, the relationship universe is starting to collapse, so the writers need to raise a new pillar as a reason for Julia to be there to hold the relationship universe up. They haven't done it yet because the episode context hasn't been there yet. First William and Julia were on their honeymoon. Then they were getting settled in their new hotel home. This episode didn't include Julia at all. Julia might be too busy campaigning to be a profiler in the next couple of eps, but after she drops out in favor of Margaret Haile, let's see what the writers decided to do with her. I'm sure they realize the problem here. |
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Post by Hodge on Nov 26, 2014 3:56:48 GMT
Hodge. Oh Hodge! I didn’t see that coming at all, not until Giles mentioned Dodger, his dog. My mouth fell open in disbelief. When they brought him in to tell him his secret was no more, my heart broke for him and the tears welled up in my eyes. It’s hard to imagine looking through the windows and not seeing Hodge hovering in the background of SH4. Sitting there huddled close to William and going over what had happened, I felt for them both. It sounded strange when he called William by name but I could understand that he too had his moment of despair and hopelessness as his world shattered all around him. Spending even a week in jail is no easy feat for anyone, let alone someone not criminally inclined. William seemingly looking straight into his soul not knowing what to do to shield him from it all. Once again William's insistence on the truth at any cost has hurt someone close. When will he learn to leave it when someone is willing to take the blame? I guess the answer is never but I sometimes wish he'd just accept it. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 26, 2014 3:57:29 GMT
I think all she's saying is the historical/continuity error might be being caused at YB's insistence: and he's certainly in a powerful enough position to have things his way here. Which I totally get. But why is the show going to let so many actors wear their rings? I'm not arguing the decision, I'm arguing the continuity! Perhaps they just never regarded the bit about whether Victorian men wore rings or not as a big deal in the past, so they didn't really monitor actors on it. The matter only became an issue when William got married and fans began mooning over the ring. Then once a decision was made about the ring (by YB or the writers), there was no way they could reach back into the past and change what they had been overlooking all this time. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 26, 2014 4:04:05 GMT
While you may hate psychology, she has worked with William using her profiling skills and has helped solved cases on seasons 6 and 7. While she lost some of her more natural integration when she left the morgue, there was an attempt to keep her in the loop and involved in the cases. But not so in season 8. I agree that the psychology plot has played out, and now the shows at a loss as to play her. I don't even accept the suffragette movement as that great of a character arc, because it's William's wife who's campaigning for office, not Dr. Ogden. Dr. Ogden, BAMF, is gone. The longer they keep her as arm candy, the less likely the show seems to do anything to repair their mistake. And that makes me sad. When Julia helped solved cases in season 6 and 7, I always felt William clapped a little too hard. He was like the Julia Ogden Appreciation Society, reassuring her that she was still needed. I still think you're suffering from post-marriage panic, though. With the UST gone, the relationship universe is starting to collapse, so the writers need to raise a new pillar as a reason for Julia to be there to hold the relationship universe up. They haven't done it yet because the episode context hasn't been there yet. First William and Julia were on their honeymoon. Then they were getting settled in their new hotel home. This episode didn't include Julia at all. Julia might be too busy campaigning to be a profiler in the next couple of eps, but after she drops out in favor of Margaret Haile, let's see what the writers decided to do with her. I'm sure they realize the problem here. It wasn't perfect, but at least the effort was made. That effort hasn't been made this season. I'm not saying that it won't be fixed, but the longer the show waits to fix it seems to hint that the show isn't trying to fix it. Sorry, but I don't think the UST (while delicious) was integral to the show at all, and the fact that the writers have been playing it like it has been is something of a concern to me. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, IMO. It doesn't have to be that way. What is it that I've said that makes you think I'm suffering from post-marriage panic? I've repeatedly said that I don't have to have non-stop shipper action, and I've been more than happy to discuss non-W/J storylines in the past. My concern is that the writers are done with Julia- and they've just shown that they're okay with sacrificing a character when it serves their purpose. They've written themselves into a corner with Julia, why not do something similar or even edgier with her? |
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