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Post by snacky on Nov 25, 2014 6:52:50 GMT
It serves nobody's best interests to make the knowledge that Giles is homosexual or that Murdoch let a murderer go free, and everybody involved knows that. I am hoping that this will not be a subject of future angst (sorry Snacky) in the series. ROTFL!  I'm way too predictable.  William indicated he already told Julia about in Lovers in a Murderous Time, when they argued over William punching Darcy. William said Julia knew why he couldn't stop her wedding. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 25, 2014 6:56:31 GMT
I love the fact that William now has grey areas as opposed to all B&W. I noticed he didn't flinch when Giles admitted his proclivity, he's accepted it for what it is. I think it will be the end of the Constance Gardiner secret. The only person that cared about it was Giles and now he knows the truth but that truth won't help him. There's actually a religious term for this that might help William with his compartmentalization/filing system. Adiaphora - "things indifferent" (to matters of determining religious faith/heresy/dispute/etc). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdiaphoraIt comes from Stoic philosophy, which suits William quite well. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 25, 2014 7:13:10 GMT
*Snacky's mind gradually puts two and three together* Giles old BF didn't get shanked for being gay and undermining the homosocial camaraderie of the constabulary and all that jazz, did he?  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 25, 2014 13:44:29 GMT
Giles already knew. I think this is a landmark moment in a couple of ways. When William came back from the Klondike, he wanted to make a full confession. The moral standard which he had set for himself demanded that he be as transparent as glass in his profession. William was only thinking of himself and it took Brackenreid giving him a verbal slap in the head to make him realize that it would also ruin the Inspector, who had really stuck his neck out for him. At this moment, William had to learn to live with his own actions, without the catharsis of confession, for the greater good. He never doubted that what he did was the right thing, although it cost him Julia. And now he had to live with the cost. Now the secret is out. Stockton knew about it too, but I wonder who else already knows? Or will find out? need to re watch to see if there are any clues. William does not have to hide it anymore. Now he has to live with the secret being out, and the possible damage to his reputation from the more conservative types in authority. I wonder how much Julia knows. did they ever have a conversation about this? Sorry for rambling. Now I need to go back to Season 5... I agree-this ep was a landmark episode, and it's going to be very interesting to see the fallout from this week. I'm going to wait until all you North American peeps go to bed to watch the show again, and I may even answer my own questions, but why was Giles such an ass to William about Constance Gardner? If he was a good cop who had acted out of loyalty, shouldn't he have at least given William-another good cop who did something out of character-the benefit of the doubt. Of course, the poor man also hasn't gotten laid in 20 years...ouch! Anyone else wonder of what experience William speaks when he tells Giles "lovers deceive"? Okay, watched it again, and I'm still perplexed at Giles' behavior for a lot of this episode. This is a man who above all else stood for truth (purportedly), yet repeatedly lied or lied by omission when William was trying to conduct a murder investigation. On the one hand, I understand why he was lying (didn't wanna get caught), but why did he continue to be an ass to William about Constance Gardner in doing so? If Giles was just being loyal to Hodge, and was trying to protect his friend from acting in his own interests, and was otherwise a real "Jesus" of a cop, why couldn't he accept that maybe William had similar motivations for doing what he did? Also, he asked William to confess his crime, but told him the details or reasons why he did it weren't germane to the action, when they most certainly were. Yet, when he confesses his dirty secret, all of a sudden, you better believe those details were germane (Because Hodge was his bro). It just seems weird to me that they've gone to all this trouble over the years to portray Giles as an honest cop who sought truth above all else, and then finally, just turned out to be a hypocrite. Or, am I missing something? I asked my husband (who's only seen it once) and he said it was because he wanted to save William's soul from being destroyed by his secret, but that doesn't sound right to me either. I also found it interesting how for Giles, loyalty was the only equal for truth, but would you argue that it was for William? I think for William it might be atonement. I realize that William agreed to burden the secret of what he'd done out of loyalty to Brax, but he wanted to first atone for his previous action of putting her in harm's way and then atone again for that action to his superiors. Yet William states to both Giles and Slorach that if Brax was guilty murdering the O'Sheas, then he'd face the punishment. That doesn't smack of loyalty being equal to truth for William. I'd love to know what your thoughts were. See, I can do non-shippy! I love ambiguous gray areas! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 25, 2014 13:47:53 GMT
Anyone else wonder of what experience William speaks when he tells Giles "lovers deceive"? I think he was just repeating what Giles had said to him about the deception of the man he loved. Perhaps-but there's often a bit of William's heart in these interrogations and I can't help but wonder if he was betrayed by a lover in his past, and is yet another secret that's waiting to come out? Or is he holding some residual anger at Julia still-even if just a trace? Admittedly, it had to hurt when she ran off and immediately got herself engaged, and while he seems to have made peace with it, does it still sting just a bit? But, I think I prefer someone betraying him from his past. |
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Post by lovemondays on Nov 25, 2014 14:01:43 GMT
Things is loved about this episode: 1) Stockton is mostly 'away with the fairies'. I quite liked his character here. I also love the irony that it was Stockton who made reference to the mascot, which lead to William talking to it and finding the key to unlocking the mystery. 2) Giles and William having a showdown with each other's dark truths. The whole scene was brilliant writing AND acting. Did anyone notice how William closed his eyes as Giles talked about it being 'the last time I took a man to my bed'? To me, William's expression was said 'not that, please'. William seems to have mellowed a little on the homosexuality issue but I think it was especially difficult to deal with in a man he had respect and admiration for. 3) The scandal occurred during Brackenreid's second week at the precinct so he was untouched by the affair. It was a good tactic from the writers to have him present at the time but plausibly out of the loop. 4) Both George and Henry did some seriously excellent police work. No complaining, no bickering, just following through. 5) William's facial recognition gadget!! That was really cool. 6) Hodge!!! Did anyone see that coming?  ? My jaw hit the floor and tears pooled in my eyes. I was surprised though when Hodge called William by his name during his confession. It seemed a bit out of place. I'll miss Hodge. 7) The questions still to be answered...who will be the new CC? What fallout will there be re William's admission? I loved how the whole thing played out. As soon as Stockton referred to the telegraph boys as 'nancy boys' I knew for sure Giles was gay and that it would be the key to the mystery. I felt William's tension throughout...he loves the constabulary and what it stands for but he cannot abide criminal activity within it. The parallels between William and Giles on this issue were fantastic. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 25, 2014 14:13:39 GMT
Things is loved about this episode: 1) Stockton is mostly 'away with the fairies'. I quite liked his character here. I also love the irony that it was Stockton who made reference to the mascot, which lead to William talking to it and finding the key to unlocking the mystery. 2) Giles and William having a showdown with each other's dark truths. The whole scene was brilliant writing AND acting. Did anyone notice how William closed his eyes as Giles talked about it being 'the last time I took a man to my bed'? To me, William's expression was said 'not that, please'. William seems to have mellowed a little on the homosexuality issue but I think it was especially difficult to deal with in a man he had respect and admiration for. 3) The scandal occurred during Brackenreid's second week at the precinct so he was untouched by the affair. It was a good tactic from the writers to have him present at the time but plausibly out of the loop. 4) Both George and Henry did some seriously excellent police work. No complaining, no bickering, just following through. 5) William's facial recognition gadget!! That was really cool. 6) Hodge!!! Did anyone see that coming? ? My jaw hit the floor and tears pooled in my eyes. I was surprised though when Hodge called William by his name during his confession. It seemed a bit out of place. I'll miss Hodge. 7) The questions still to be answered...who will be the new CC? What fallout will there be re William's admission? I loved how the whole thing played out. As soon as Stockton referred to the telegraph boys as 'nancy boys' I knew for sure Giles was gay and that it would be the key to the mystery. I felt William's tension throughout...he loves the constabulary and what it stands for but he cannot abide criminal activity within it. The parallels between William and Giles on this issue were fantastic. Agreed about Stockton-who was also prominently wearing a wedding ring even though the show went to such lengths to explain how men didn't wear them. It's not the first time the show has done this, and I don't know if it's continuity errors (à la 7 Year Itch), or if YB didn't want to wear one. Strange that.  William still probably believes homosexuality is a sin, and is probably squicked by it, but has grown in that he's not going to go on a witchhunt for it either. I loved the distinction Giles made between pedophilia or being a pederast, and homosexual-I think that opened William's eyes a bit as well. I did not see Giles homosexuality coming like you did- though it didn't surprise me once he said it. It made perfect sense, IMO. The scene was absolutely brilliant acting and writing, and it was without a doubt the centerpiece of the episode. I didn't see Hodge coming either-that was totally left field, and so well-played. Aww, Hodge. Made me sad too.  I'm dying to see if there will be any fallout from William's admission as well! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 15:24:57 GMT
. May I just add that Nigel Bennett is so terrific as an actor they are no words strong enough, Absolutely! So why is everyone acting like this is the last we will see of Nigel... ?  I think he will show up again. I am sad to see the character, Hodge, go. They made mention of this in the Making Of show. The cast and crew were hoping. The actor would get a call back sometime. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 25, 2014 15:45:44 GMT
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Post by georgeisclairvoyant on Nov 25, 2014 16:00:12 GMT
This episode... So perfect.
I strongly believe there is going to be some fallout from William's confession; the only questions are how and when?
HODGE!!!! (T.T) NOOO!! So sad.
Gilles being gay, I didn't see coming, but like Fallenbelle, once it was out I wasn't all that surprised.
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Post by Hodge on Nov 25, 2014 16:00:58 GMT
Why does everyone think there will be fallout from William's admission that he released CG?? The only people that know are CG, William, Brackenreid and Giles. The first three won't say anything and it won't do Giles any good to say anything about it. The only thing in the records is that Brackenreid found an unlocked door, Giles said this himself. Stockton didn't believe him and anyone else would probably think this was Giles trying to tarnish William's name in order to detract from his own failures. This was a plot device in my opinion, a tit for tat confession. The only way Giles would confess was if William would also confess. They both only want the truth ... despite Giles lies through omission. He has the thing he wanted most from William and there's nothing he can do with it now.
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Post by georgeisclairvoyant on Nov 25, 2014 16:11:51 GMT
Why does everyone think there will be fallout from William's admission that he released CG?? The only people that know are CG, William, Brackenreid and Giles. The first three won't say anything and it won't do Giles any good to say anything about it. The only thing in the records is that Brackenreid found an unlocked door, Giles said this himself. Stockton didn't believe him and anyone else would probably think this was Giles trying to tarnish William's name in order to detract from his own failures. This was a plot device in my opinion, a tit for tat confession. The only way Giles would confess was if William would also confess. They both only want the truth ... despite Giles lies through omission. He has the thing he wanted most from William and there's nothing he can do with it now. I agree no new news has come to light yet, but since this topic was brought up from many seasons ago (season 5?), they're probably going to incorporate it. Who knows, maybe they find CG? Or maybe they find her remains and things are looked into more closely. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 25, 2014 16:16:30 GMT
Why does everyone think there will be fallout from William's admission that he released CG?? The only people that know are CG, William, Brackenreid and Giles. The first three won't say anything and it won't do Giles any good to say anything about it. The only thing in the records is that Brackenreid found an unlocked door, Giles said this himself. Stockton didn't believe him and anyone else would probably think this was Giles trying to tarnish William's name in order to detract from his own failures. This was a plot device in my opinion, a tit for tat confession. The only way Giles would confess was if William would also confess. They both only want the truth ... despite Giles lies through omission. He has the thing he wanted most from William and there's nothing he can do with it now. Because no good deed goes unpunished? But Giles makes the accusation and it's looked into, and when asked, William is truthful? Not that it has to go down this way-maybe there is no fallout. But, you may have noticed that we like to speculate around here. |
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Post by Hodge on Nov 25, 2014 16:35:03 GMT
Why does everyone think there will be fallout from William's admission that he released CG?? The only people that know are CG, William, Brackenreid and Giles. The first three won't say anything and it won't do Giles any good to say anything about it. The only thing in the records is that Brackenreid found an unlocked door, Giles said this himself. Stockton didn't believe him and anyone else would probably think this was Giles trying to tarnish William's name in order to detract from his own failures. This was a plot device in my opinion, a tit for tat confession. The only way Giles would confess was if William would also confess. They both only want the truth ... despite Giles lies through omission. He has the thing he wanted most from William and there's nothing he can do with it now. I agree no new news has come to light yet, but since this topic was brought up from many seasons ago (season 5?), they're probably going to incorporate it. Who knows, maybe they find CG? Or maybe they find her remains and things are looked into more closely. This was brought up from earlier seasons as a plot device. It's the only thing that Giles has on William and he's trying to use it against him but William outsmarted him by figuring everything out. The ruse didn't work and he can't use it again. I doubt Constance Gardiner will turn up, she'd be stupid to show her face in Toronto again, we have to presume she did what William told her and went to the US if she had any smarts about her, and I think she did, she'd go to the west coast and stay there. If her remains turned up there would be even less reason to reopen the case, why spend money on a dead murderess? |
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Post by snacky on Nov 25, 2014 16:42:06 GMT
Okay, watched it again, and I'm still perplexed at Giles' behavior for a lot of this episode. This is a man who above all else stood for truth (purportedly), yet repeatedly lied or lied by omission when William was trying to conduct a murder investigation. On the one hand, I understand why he was lying (didn't wanna get caught), but why did he continue to be an ass to William about Constance Gardner in doing so? If Giles was just being loyal to Hodge, and was trying to protect his friend from acting in his own interests, and was otherwise a real "Jesus" of a cop, why couldn't he accept that maybe William had similar motivations for doing what he did? Also, he asked William to confess his crime, but told him the details or reasons why he did it weren't germane to the action, when they most certainly were. Yet, when he confesses his dirty secret, all of a sudden, you better believe those details were germane (Because Hodge was his bro). It just seems weird to me that they've gone to all this trouble over the years to portray Giles as an honest cop who sought truth above all else, and then finally, just turned out to be a hypocrite. Or, am I missing something? I asked my husband (who's only seen it once) and he said it was because he wanted to save William's soul from being destroyed by his secret, but that doesn't sound right to me either. I also found it interesting how for Giles, loyalty was the only equal for truth, but would you argue that it was for William? I think for William it might be atonement. I realize that William agreed to burden the secret of what he'd done out of loyalty to Brax, but he wanted to first atone for his previous action of putting her in harm's way and then atone again for that action to his superiors. Yet William states to both Giles and Slorach that if Brax was guilty murdering the O'Sheas, then he'd face the punishment. That doesn't smack of loyalty being equal to truth for William. I think Giles felt conflicted and guilty about the code of loyalty, and he projected it on to William: he saw a lot of William in himself, and knew how what he had done had "destroyed his soul". He was a hypocrite and he knew it. Moral conflicts cause people to do contradictory and hypocritical things - I think that's the moral of the story for both William and Giles: I'm not sure William is getting a second chance by "confessing" either. It doesn't undo what he did. It just spreads the circle of the secret further. Poor Hodge! I don't have much time to ruminate over the details of the ep this morning, but I LOVE the details of how homosexuality was handled in this ep! - the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality - the casual use of "bugger" in the homosocial environment which creates the opportunity for blackmail and murder - how a member of the "brotherhood" preyed on homosexuals outside their ranks and "policed" within - how Hodge had his "suspicions" but remained loyal - how Giles achilles heel was a romantic spirit - who knew! - how William stayed focused on the murder and probably saved a bit of Giles' soul by disrupting his expectations that his homosexuality and/or destroying his career over it would become the focus of the case - the idea that Giles would get more jail time for being a homosexual than Hodge would for manslaughter Awesome on ALL counts! And I have to say, I could really imagine Giles as a besotted romantic! I do hope we see him again. Perhaps he can turn states evidence on some major crime. (The Black Hand?) I also have to add, it's a trip to imagine Station House 4 had no flush toilets as of yet. If William was a germ-o-phobe, do you think he was running across the street to the nearest tea house to use their facilities this whole time?  This was such a great episode, that I kind of worry it makes the previous episodes of the season look worse in comparison! MM should be striving to spread this kind of quality around throughout the season. |
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? My jaw hit the floor and tears pooled in my eyes. I was surprised though when Hodge called William by his name during his confession. It seemed a bit out of place. I'll miss Hodge.
Jan 30, 2013 21:44:55 GMT