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Post by lovemondays on Mar 28, 2015 22:02:32 GMT
If Fr. Keegan is coming back next season as we've been led to believe maybe he brings up the subject at another dinner with W/J. I think that would be an interesting route to go. If they ended up adopting, Fr. Keegan could end up as the one who knows of a child needing a home....... Good one! I still think Julia is going to end up pregnant. You can all slam me for soap opera thinking  but that's what I can see as a series finale. We're still in 1902 and we don't expect the boy to be born until 1904 per Twentieth Century Murdoch. I want Julia to be able to give William a son but I agree with the majority that it would get in the way ergo it needs to be a series finale event. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 28, 2015 22:30:38 GMT
Good one! I still think Julia is going to end up pregnant. You can all slam me for soap opera thinking but that's what I can see as a series finale. We're still in 1902 and we don't expect the boy to be born until 1904 per Twentieth Century Murdoch. I want Julia to be able to give William a son but I agree with the majority that it would get in the way ergo it needs to be a series finale event. Arrrghhh! Please don't press the shipper arc onto the series! That's what you're doing when it seems "right" that the series should end with Julia getting pregnant. The series isn't about Julia. It shouldn't even be about William's romance. There's no reason to even put the 1904 date on things except for a case of William's hypnosis! Given the William's belief system and the de facto situation of his marriage, I think the issue of children should be an issue in the marriage. Because the context of the series is modernizing science and medicine, I think Julia should look for a way to get pregnant. Those two things alone could take 2 seasons - which would go into 1904! But there are other things that could happen. Julia could insist that she wants to develop her career and she has important things to accomplish: William married her knowing that she couldn't have children, so he shouldn't be dissatisfied now. Julia could get lost at sea just after finally agreeing to have children. OR PM could finally "pull the trigger" like he did for the marriage and decide Julia could get away with having a baby without the show jumping the shark - no "natural end" necessary. Every time people bring up a "natural end" based on the romantic arc, it makes me (and I'm sure it makes the writers and the producers) groan at giving in to the marriage. This is a purely externally-produced, fan-service generated arc. The writers could end it tomorrow by killing off Julia (as Fallenbelle feared they might). Let's look at ways to expand and improve the show instead of the most satisfying way to end it - because that just means the writers *did* make a mistake with the marriage and allowing the "arc" to start to close. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 28, 2015 22:49:21 GMT
Good one! I still think Julia is going to end up pregnant. You can all slam me for soap opera thinking but that's what I can see as a series finale. We're still in 1902 and we don't expect the boy to be born until 1904 per Twentieth Century Murdoch. I want Julia to be able to give William a son but I agree with the majority that it would get in the way ergo it needs to be a series finale event. Arrrghhh! Please don't press the shipper arc onto the series! That's what you're doing when it seems "right" that the series should end with Julia getting pregnant. The series isn't about Julia. It shouldn't even be about William's romance. There's no reason to even put the 1904 date on things except for a case of William's hypnosis! Given the William's belief system and the de facto situation of his marriage, I think the issue of children should be an issue in the marriage. Because the context of the series is modernizing science and medicine, I think Julia should look for a way to get pregnant. Those two things alone could take 2 seasons - which would go into 1904! But there are other things that could happen. Julia could insist that she wants to develop her career and she has important things to accomplish: William married her knowing that she couldn't have children, so he shouldn't be dissatisfied now. Julia could get lost at sea just after finally agreeing to have children. OR PM could finally "pull the trigger" like he did for the marriage and decide Julia could get away with having a baby without the show jumping the shark - no "natural end" necessary. Every time people bring up a "natural end" based on the romantic arc, it makes me (and I'm sure it makes the writers and the producers) groan at giving in to the marriage. This is a purely externally-produced, fan-service generated arc. The writers could end it tomorrow by killing off Julia (as Fallenbelle feared they might). Let's look at ways to expand and improve the show instead of the most satisfying way to end it - because that just means the writers *did* make a mistake with the marriage and allowing the "arc" to start to close. I don't see it that way as it could be any time in the future. How many more seasons does the show actually have? I'd say maybe 5 at the most (even though I'd like it to go on forever) and it is conceivable that Julia could have a child in 5 years. If TPTB kill off Julia they know they'll lose a large segment of the audience so that would be an even more stupid move than marrying her off to Darcy. I wonder how many viewers they lost with that. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 0:20:45 GMT
I don't see it that way as it could be any time in the future. How many more seasons does the show actually have? I'd say maybe 5 at the most (even though I'd like it to go on forever) and it is conceivable that Julia could have a child in 5 years. If TPTB kill off Julia they know they'll lose a large segment of the audience so that would be an even more stupid move than marrying her off to Darcy. I wonder how many viewers they lost with that. I don't think we can put any time stamp on it at all. We're all Jilliam fans, so it's hard to imagine the show if they kill off Julia. But at the same time, by saying the presence of Julia creates a reason to end the show, we give then a good reason to. MM is actually imaginable without Julia. What Lies Buried is one of our favorite episodes, and we're all Jilliam fans here. But there are also fans who aren't interested in William's relationships at all. While a large segment might leave if Julia leaves (that gives Helene a lot of power right now), another audience might gather around a different pairing if it's the right match. The Good Wife is an example of a show where the actor who was the "natural" pairing who everyone came to see left. I don't watch that show, so I don't know how they replaced him, but the writers had to make do. They didn't decide the show ended because one of the actors, who wasn't even the lead actor, left. I'm not saying this because I think it's a good idea for Julia to leave now or that I think the marriage doomed the show. What I'm saying is it's fan tendencies like that which make writers reluctant to follow through with the pressures of fan fantasies of romantic arcs. I will say I'd vote for the writers to kill Julia off if the only other choice is to give her a child at a certain time and end the series. If the series was going strong otherwise, and the only reason Julia needed to have a child then was fans felt it was "long past due" (like the marriage) and then once the child was born, that was the "natural closure", then I might just sneak somewhere off the side of the set and shoot Julia myself before that happened. Shows actually don't have a "natural" life span. There are older shows that went on for over 15 years. This is not to say I want MM to go on after it' has become awful. All I am talking about is imposing an artificial ending created by our viewer romantic expectations, which have nothing to do with what the writers could have developed for us. We have no idea what the writers will do. It hasn't happened yet. They might shake up the "formula" again and do something that *works* this time. If people feel absolutely compelled to write end of show scenarios, I challenge them to come up with some that have nothing to do with either William's relationship with Julia or having a baby. What in William's own character development would constitute an appropriate end to his own journey of self discovery? I personally liked the way Fallenbelle was using WWI as a touchstone, because that's when all the optimism of modern science and technology changed - that would give William perspective on his world, and it's also the door to our world of big government science/tech. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 29, 2015 1:33:19 GMT
I don't think we can put any time stamp on it at all. We're all Jilliam fans, so it's hard to imagine the show if they kill of Julia. But at the same time, by saying the presence of Julia creates a reason to end the show, we give then a good reason to. MM is actually imaginable without Julia. What Lies Buried is one of our favorite episodes, and we're all Jilliam fans here. But there are also fans who aren't interested in William's relationships at all. While a large segment might leave if Julia leaves (that gives Helene a lot of power right now), another audience might gather around a different pairing if it's the right match. The Good Wife is an example of a show where the actor who was the "natural" pairing who everyone came to see left. I don't watch that show, so I don't know how they replaced him, but the writers had to make do. They didn't decide the show ended because one of the actors, who wasn't even the lead actor, left. I'm not saying this because I think it's a good idea for Julia to leave now or that I think the marriage doomed the show. What I'm saying is it's fan tendencies like that which make writers reluctant to follow through with the pressures of fan fantasies of romantic arcs. I will say I'd vote for the writers to kill Julia off if the only other choice is to give her a child at a certain time and end the series. If the series was going strong otherwise, and the only reason Julia needed to have a child then was fans felt it was "long past due" (like the marriage) and then once the child was born, that was the "natural closure", then I might just sneak somewhere off the side of the set and shoot Julia myself before that happened. Shows actually don't have a "natural" life span. There are older shows that went on for over 15 years. This is not to say I want MM to go on after it' has become awful. All I am talking about is imposing an artificial ending created by our viewer romantic expectations, which have nothing to do with what the writers could have developed for us. We have no idea what the writers will do. It hasn't happened yet. They might shake up the "formula" again and do something that *works* this time. If people feel absolutely compelled to write end of show scenarios, I challenge them to come up with some that have nothing to do with either William's relationship with Julia or having a baby. What in William's own character development would constitute an appropriate end to his own journey of self discovery? I personally liked the way Fallenbelle was using WWI as a touchstone, because that's when all the optimism of modern science and technology changed - that would give William perspective on his world, and it's also the door to our world of big government science/tech. We're not saying the show has a natural lifespan. We're also not saying give her a child and end the series. All we're saying is we DON'T want a child and if they HAVE to give her one then it should be when the series is ending ... whenever that is. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately pedantic about this because I think we've spelled it out quite plainly. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 2:22:19 GMT
We're not saying the show has a natural lifespan. We're also not saying give her a child and end the series. All we're saying is we DON'T want a child and if they HAVE to give her one then it should be when the series is ending ... whenever that is. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately pedantic about this because I think we've spelled it out quite plainly. Bringing up the 1904 date is putting a timer on it. That may actually be a generous timer - I have a vague memory that we'd discussed William and Julia having to get pregnant in 1902 to meet this timeline before...? Anyway, we're in the Twentieth Century Murdoch thread, which is what gives that timeline weight here. I feel like I have to provide some pushback in favor of NOT adhering to that proposed timeline. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 29, 2015 2:27:18 GMT
We're not saying the show has a natural lifespan. We're also not saying give her a child and end the series. All we're saying is we DON'T want a child and if they HAVE to give her one then it should be when the series is ending ... whenever that is. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately pedantic about this because I think we've spelled it out quite plainly. Bringing up the 1904 date is putting a timer on it. That may actually be a generous timer - I have a vague memory that we'd discussed William and Julia having to get pregnant in 1902 to meet this timeline before...? Anyway, we're in the Twentieth Century Murdoch thread, which is what gives that timeline weight here. I feel like I have to provide some pushback in favor of NOT adhering to that proposed timeline. I don't think anyone was actually adhering to any timeline. It was just suggested that William's dream had a date of 1904 as the boy was 8 in 1912. As it was a dream it doesn't really count. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 2:42:38 GMT
I don't think anyone was actually adhering to any timeline. It was just suggested that William's dream had a date of 1904 as the boy was 8 in 1912. As it was a dream it doesn't really count. Yes, I feel dreams shouldn't really count either!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 15:55:22 GMT
I don't think anyone was actually adhering to any timeline. It was just suggested that William's dream had a date of 1904 as the boy was 8 in 1912. As it was a dream it doesn't really count. Yes, I feel dreams shouldn't really count either! May I chime in? I was the one who started this whole discussion by wondering if William ever told Julia the full contents of his seizure induced hallucination. The subject of children has always been a part of their relationship, from when she told him she had a an abortion, and then that she was sterile, to her leaving him so he could find someone who could give him "what he so obviously wanted". And then his written proposal stated that they could adopt. So i think that discussing children is a part of their arc. Now whether or not it ever happens, is something for those who run the show to decide. They may decide that a natural pregnancy will be part of the series finale, which should also feature a bang up mystery, and a giant promotion for William. But, and this is a big one, if this show continues to be viable for many years, and that is a possibility, it may be necessary to have children be part of their lives. Honestly, I am not sure how this would be accomplished. I don't think anyone knows, as they work on a year by year basis. I am sure the writers felt for the longest time that the marriage would be part of the end of the show. We all know that this particular episode was written as a series ender! The WJ ship has been a part of the show since day 1, and though I know that other successful series have changed the major shipping arc and stayed successful, I personally would have some difficulty with a show without Julia. But I WOULD give it a chance, if that were to happen. |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 29, 2015 16:48:52 GMT
Yes, I feel dreams shouldn't really count either! May I chime in? I was the one who started this whole discussion by wondering if William ever told Julia the full contents of his seizure induced hallucination. The subject of children has always been a part of their relationship, from when she told him she had a an abortion, and then that she was sterile, to her leaving him so he could find someone who could give him "what he so obviously wanted". And then his written proposal stated that they could adopt. So i think that discussing children is a part of their arc. Now whether or not it ever happens, is something for those who run the show to decide. They may decide that a natural pregnancy will be part of the series finale, which should also feature a bang up mystery, and a giant promotion for William. But, and this is a big one, if this show continues to be viable for many years, and that is a possibility, it may be necessary to have children be part of their lives. Honestly, I am not sure how this would be accomplished. I don't think anyone knows, as they work on a year by year basis. I am sure the writers felt for the longest time that the marriage would be part of the end of the show. We all know that this particular episode was written as a series ender! The WJ ship has been a part of the show since day 1, and though I know that other successful series have changed the major shipping arc and stayed successful, I personally would have some difficulty with a show without Julia. But I WOULD give it a chance, if that were to happen. I'm not sure the marriage was written as a series ender but I do think that had the writers been able to manage it, without stretching credulity, they would have put another roadblock in their way. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 18:17:30 GMT
The subject of children has always been a part of their relationship, from when she told him she had a an abortion, and then that she was sterile, to her leaving him so he could find someone who could give him "what he so obviously wanted". So i think that discussing children is a part of their arc. But, and this is a big one, if this show continues to be viable for many years, and that is a possibility, it may be necessary to have children be part of their lives. Honestly, I am not sure how this would be accomplished. I don't think anyone knows, as they work on a year by year basis. I am sure the writers felt for the longest time that the marriage would be part of the end of the show. We all know that this particular episode was written as a series ender! en. The child discussion is absolutely part of the relationship, and it has been ever since Julia left William over her barrenness and he proposed they could adopt instead: so now it's canon that William wants children, and that was going to hang over the writers from the minute they got married. The only thing I'm objecting to is discussion of the "naturalness" of ending the show on Julia having a baby. While the writers do try to resist fan pressure, they did eventually give in to the marriage because so much of the audience insisted "it was time". Since it's canon William wants a baby, now that they are married, I can see a head of steam building toward "it's time" to have the baby, too. And that essentially ends the show. However, I'm heartened by your view that the writers may have also been holding on to the marriage card for ending the show, and they continued on after playing it. So perhaps playing the baby card won't end the show either. Personally, though, I don't feel like we're anywhere near "time" for the baby. There are plenty of stalling mechanisms for that: Julia's career and goals, events in William's life, Julia going on a fertility doctor search before adopting, etc. I apologize for being prickly about it. I just know how shippers (in all fandoms) can get a massive consensus on relationship timelines, and since this baby one in particular is even more of a show-ender than a marriage one, I want to try to cut it off at the pass before the herd starts gathering. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 18:20:54 GMT
I'm not sure the marriage was written as a series ender but I do think that had the writers been able to manage it, without stretching credulity, they would have put another roadblock in their way. One possible roadblock would be to separate William and Julia, which is something to think about when it starts to seem like their happiness is perfect and a baby must be coming along any minute now.  (Sort of like when they managed to get 3 kisses in during Ragtime: I knew they were doomed, lol.)  |
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Post by Hodge on Mar 29, 2015 19:04:13 GMT
The subject of children has always been a part of their relationship, from when she told him she had a an abortion, and then that she was sterile, to her leaving him so he could find someone who could give him "what he so obviously wanted". So i think that discussing children is a part of their arc. But, and this is a big one, if this show continues to be viable for many years, and that is a possibility, it may be necessary to have children be part of their lives. Honestly, I am not sure how this would be accomplished. I don't think anyone knows, as they work on a year by year basis. I am sure the writers felt for the longest time that the marriage would be part of the end of the show. We all know that this particular episode was written as a series ender! en. The child discussion is absolutely part of the relationship, and it has been ever since Julia left William over her barrenness and he proposed they could adopt instead: so now it's canon that William wants children, and that was going to hang over the writers from the minute they got married. The only thing I'm objecting to is discussion of the "naturalness" of ending the show on Julia having a baby. While the writers do try to resist fan pressure, they did eventually give in to the marriage because so much of the audience insisted "it was time". Since it's canon William wants a baby, now that they are married, I can see a head of steam building toward "it's time" to have the baby, too. And that essentially ends the show. However, I'm heartened by your view that the writers may have also been holding on to the marriage card for ending the show, and they continued on after playing it. So perhaps playing the baby card won't end the show either. Personally, though, I don't feel like we're anywhere near "time" for the baby. There are plenty of stalling mechanisms for that: Julia's career and goals, events in William's life, Julia going on a fertility doctor search before adopting, etc. I apologize for being prickly about it. I just know how shippers (in all fandoms) can get a massive consensus on relationship timelines, and since this baby one in particular is even more of a show-ender than a marriage one, I want to try to cut it off at the pass before the herd starts gathering. I'm prickly about it too snacky but for the opposite reason. Nobody here has ever suggested that a baby is the natural end of the show. In fact we've been saying the opposite. The ONLY time to introduce a baby is when the show is coming to an end, whenever that is. |
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Post by lovemondays on Mar 29, 2015 20:02:30 GMT
The child discussion is absolutely part of the relationship, and it has been ever since Julia left William over her barrenness and he proposed they could adopt instead: so now it's canon that William wants children, and that was going to hang over the writers from the minute they got married. The only thing I'm objecting to is discussion of the "naturalness" of ending the show on Julia having a baby. While the writers do try to resist fan pressure, they did eventually give in to the marriage because so much of the audience insisted "it was time". Since it's canon William wants a baby, now that they are married, I can see a head of steam building toward "it's time" to have the baby, too. And that essentially ends the show. However, I'm heartened by your view that the writers may have also been holding on to the marriage card for ending the show, and they continued on after playing it. So perhaps playing the baby card won't end the show either. Personally, though, I don't feel like we're anywhere near "time" for the baby. There are plenty of stalling mechanisms for that: Julia's career and goals, events in William's life, Julia going on a fertility doctor search before adopting, etc. I apologize for being prickly about it. I just know how shippers (in all fandoms) can get a massive consensus on relationship timelines, and since this baby one in particular is even more of a show-ender than a marriage one, I want to try to cut it off at the pass before the herd starts gathering. I'm prickly about it too snacky but for the opposite reason. Nobody here has ever suggested that a baby is the natural end of the show. In fact we've been saying the opposite. The ONLY time to introduce a baby is when the show is coming to an end, whenever that is. I want this series to go on for many seasons to come. There is still so much to be explored. My point was that IF a natural child, as opposed to an adopted one, were to be introduced there is still time per TCM. I agree with you completely Hodge that the writers have not tied themselves to that timeline BECAUSE it was a dream. Snacky, I'm only wishing, out loud, for one of William's most heartfelt dreams to come true, AT SOME POINT. I am quite content to wait until the writers decide it's time but I'll be sad if that decision is never. There is too much work to be done re-establishing a new balance between W/J's marriage and working relationships. IMO, that needs to be the only thing secondary to the murder mystery for next season. IMO one of the major reasons this season has felt so off kilter is the number of secondary plotlines and characters that have been introduced. I'm not saying the W/J ship is the only thing worth layering in...I see more in store for the suffragist arc, Fr. Keegan etc, but I think they need to minimize how much they take on in order to have the kind of tight, edgy writing that has defined the MM that we know and love. |
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Post by snacky on Mar 29, 2015 20:12:39 GMT
I'm prickly about it too snacky but for the opposite reason. Nobody here has ever suggested that a baby is the natural end of the show. In fact we've been saying the opposite. The ONLY time to introduce a baby is when the show is coming to an end, whenever that is. Actually, Melanie Pond has suggested the show should come to a "natural" end next year with Julia having a baby. I realize no one who posts regularly here reduces the show to shipper moments to the extent that the baby HAS to happen next. I just feel obliged to speak out when I feel the conversation moving in that direction because I know that the thought is out there. |
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but that's what I can see as a series finale. We're still in 1902 and we don't expect the boy to be born until 1904 per Twentieth Century Murdoch. I want Julia to be able to give William a son but I agree with the majority that it would get in the way ergo it needs to be a series finale event.
(Sort of like when they managed to get 3 kisses in during Ragtime: I knew they were doomed, lol.) 
