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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 6:29:27 GMT
So, I guess I believe in my duality theory because they're both plausible. Will I ever find out? Maybe things will be revealed this season that firmly state one way or the other, but perhaps it's more fun this way.  IMHO, it would be an epic mistake for the show to tell us one way or the other. But that means we won't be in on very much of the honeymoon night.  William's whistling and the cat's sleeping with dogs line aside, I don't think he would have risked getting Anna getting pregnant and the larger outcome of marrying her. As much as he liked Anna, I don't think he was ready to look elsewhere yet. Sleeping with Anna would have just been "compromising" her. That's not to say there wasn't some intense comforting over Anna's near death experience, though. And Anna might have taught him a thing or two about naughty librarians that made him whistle. See, I would think he'd have performance anxiety either way.  He's either never done anything like it before, or this is the woman of his dreams, and he's been waiting 7 years for her. That's a lot for any guy to live up to.  But still, maybe he had prophylactics on him that time? Or, maybe he used the pull out method? Or, he just gave in for once and had a bit of fun, reliving his glory days. I've known plenty of cautious people who have chosen to throw caution to the wind occasionally. Trust me, it happens. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 6:31:26 GMT
The body language in this scene was so telling. Enid sitting up straight and rigid at the front of the seat and Julia slightly hunched and sitting behind her then slumping down even further and looking down. It wasn't what was said with words, it was what was said without. I'm wondering why Julia was his personal doctor. She's the coroner. Because there's no way Julia was going to let anyone else treat him. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 6:33:36 GMT
Because she would want to treat him personally, as a friend. She may be a pathologist but she is still a medical Dr. Not for one last chance to see him nekkid?  Oh I'm sure that and the chance to touch him and imprint herself on him was also a motivating factor. It worked too-was William dreaming of Enid in his bed? |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 6:38:47 GMT
IMHO, it would be an epic mistake for the show to tell us one way or the other. But that means we won't be in on very much of the honeymoon night. William's whistling and the cat's sleeping with dogs line aside, I don't think he would have risked getting Anna getting pregnant and the larger outcome of marrying her. As much as he liked Anna, I don't think he was ready to look elsewhere yet. Sleeping with Anna would have just been "compromising" her. That's not to say there wasn't some intense comforting over Anna's near death experience, though. And Anna might have taught him a thing or two about naughty librarians that made him whistle. See, I would think he'd have performance anxiety either way. He's either never done anything like it before, or this is the woman of his dreams, and he's been waiting 7 years for her. That's a lot for any guy to live up to. But still, maybe he had prophylactics on him that time? Or, maybe he used the pull out method? Or, he just gave in for once and had a bit of fun, reliving his glory days. I've known plenty of cautious people who have chosen to throw caution to the wind occasionally. Trust me, it happens. Plus, Anna strikes me as a worldly, earthy woman herself, as well as the type of girl who knows how to prevent a pregnancy. Or, maybe she shows up (post wedding, of course) with a three year old son. Hence, how William gets his biological son. |
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Post by murdochic on Sept 24, 2014 10:49:03 GMT
I will forever be baffled why any viewer believes William is a virgin, and that he and Julia haven't been lovers. The evidence on the show would say otherwise to both these theories IMO.
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Post by lovemondays on Sept 24, 2014 14:27:29 GMT
After thinking about this today, for me the *philosophical* objection to the Virgin Theory (and I think this is where ziggy has a problem, too) is that "virgin William" ends up being infantilized somewhat. "Adult" and experience Julia guides William through his "first time". There's a really bad fanfic in that - almost at the level of mpreg. It's certainly not where my Virgin Theory opinions are spinning out from. So I think I'm going to revise my position yet again. Here is my current view: 1) William did find some opportunities/take some risks when he was younger. i.e., he is not technically a virgin. Besides I want to believe in FallenBelle's logging camp shenanigans. 2) As William matured, settled into regular work, and aspired toward middle class life, he became more risk averse. Once he aspired to take the civil service exams and become a detective, he did not want to risk everything he was working for on unplanned pregnancies and STDs. When he dated Liza, he probably didn't sleep with her because she was part of his plan to establish himself in the middle class. 3) In this scenario, William probably hasn't "gone all the way" since his mid-20s, and he still never slept with Julia - so he's still a "virgin" as far as sleeping with her is concerned. If William hasn't slept with Julia, I don't think he's slept with Anna. See, I think it's entirely plausible that William's never been with anyone, but there have been a few hints scattered about that allude to maybe he has gotten up to quite a bit in his past. If William spent years in a logging camp, I can't see him being a saint there (or not surviving long if he was). I would think he did some drinking, had fun with the ladies until he realized that he didn't like who he was becoming (his father perhaps) and took the civil service exam and finally did something with his education and intellect. Once on the path to middle class, he began to morph into the William we know today-cautious and very principle driven. Once a detective, he began to court Liza, and thus the adoption of the prevailing belief (of the day) that you didn't play with the types of girls you marry. Also, by this time, he was very cautious and careful, so dollymops were definitely out by this point in his life, whereas they may have featured prominently in his past. So if he does have a sexual past, it's mostly in the distant past-with the exception of Anna. I say with the exception of Anna, because I think Bristol!William might be the same as loggingcamp!William. In MI, William has forgotten who he's become, and has reverted back to the earthy, worldly man he probably was in his younger days. Even after he's remembered detective!William, he's already shown the earthier William to Anna, and she hasn't fled from him-in fact, quite the opposite-she wants him to stay. There is a connection there that he hasn't shown to anyone else. If he did sleep with Anna, I don't think it was until SotWS. In MI, he remembered just in time that there was probably someone else, and decided to be faithful to her, but in SoTWS, Anna was there, she knew all of him, and he was nursing a broken heart and probably trying to get over Julia-so he had a little fun. I ship W/J, but I'm not so rabid that I begrudge him the opportunity to find some happiness with someone else, especially since Julia married another man. This time, there was no one else to be faithful to, and he may have been testing the waters to see if he could get over Julia and find happiness with Anna. But, I suspect Anna was really attracted to "Harry" (a.k.a. Bristol!William), and while that's a part of our William, it's not who he is anymore. Thus, they didn't really have a future together. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she called him Harry at the height of passion during the act.So, I guess I believe in my duality theory because they're both plausible. Will I ever find out? Maybe things will be revealed this season that firmly state one way or the other, but perhaps it's more fun this way. I like how you've pulled all these stray details together as a timeline for the sexual awakening of William. I agree with your reasoning throughout especially with respect to Anna; however, you've done such a good job proving the likelihood that he's not a virgin you have blown your duality theory out of the water, IMHO. The only way we'll know for sure is if the wedding actually happens. The writers have done such a good job giving us just enough to keep us happily speculating FOR YEARS that they'll leave it alone. The gift of MM is that the social mores of its time frame give us so much to debate. |
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Post by lovemondays on Sept 24, 2014 14:32:33 GMT
Enid just went into 'mother' mode with William. I think he was too gobsmacked by her fussing to know how to react, particularly with their relationship being so new. Perhaps it was a measure of how sick William really was that his natural boundaries were so lowered and breachable by Enid's mothering. It set the stage for Enid's surprise and distress with the difference between the 'Convalescence' William and the 'Murdoch.com' William. The first she could manage/control, the other not. She's a woman who wants control but will let her man think he's wearing the pants. In a way Enid represents the hypocritical convention of "women's power": the type people would have smugly said "wears the pants" because she' domineering at home while being a "model wife" at the same time. Julia would be the opposite: she doesn't conform to the public image, but perhaps she's actually more cooperative as a partner. Very well said. Julia's approach works much better for William. |
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Post by lovemondays on Sept 24, 2014 14:38:04 GMT
Hehehe. My good deed for the day...check! After thinking about this today, for me the *philosophical* objection to the Virgin Theory (and I think this is where ziggy has a problem, too) is that "virgin William" ends up being infantilized somewhat. "Adult" and experience Julia guides William through his "first time". There's a really bad fanfic in that - almost at the level of mpreg. It's certainly not where my Virgin Theory opinions are spinning out from. So I think I'm going to revise my position yet again. Here is my current view: 1) William did find some opportunities/take some risks when he was younger. i.e., he is not technically a virgin. Besides I want to believe in FallenBelle's logging camp shenanigans. 2) As William matured, settled into regular work, and aspired toward middle class life, he became more risk averse. Once he aspired to take the civil service exams and become a detective, he did not want to risk everything he was working for on unplanned pregnancies and STDs. When he dated Liza, he probably didn't sleep with her because she was part of his plan to establish himself in the middle class. 3) In this scenario, William probably hasn't "gone all the way" since his mid-20s, and he still never slept with Julia - so he's still a "virgin" as far as sleeping with her is concerned. If William hasn't slept with Julia, I don't think he's slept with Anna. Snacky, my dear, you are always faithful to angsty William. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 14:48:52 GMT
I like how you've pulled all these stray details together as a timeline for the sexual awakening of William. I agree with your reasoning throughout especially with respect to Anna; however, you've done such a good job proving the likelihood that he's not a virgin you have blown your duality theory out of the water, IMHO. The only way we'll know for sure is if the wedding actually happens. The writers have done such a good job giving us just enough to keep us happily speculating FOR YEARS that they'll leave it alone. The gift of MM is that the social mores of its time frame give us so much to debate. Yeah...I know-that thought's occurred to me too. Right now, I'm leading heavily towards not a virgin, although I find the idea of virgin!William so cute, I'm just not quite ready to let that go, LOL! |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 16:00:53 GMT
See, I would think he'd have performance anxiety either way. He's either never done anything like it before, or this is the woman of his dreams, and he's been waiting 7 years for her. That's a lot for any guy to live up to. But still, maybe he had prophylactics on him that time? Or, maybe he used the pull out method? Or, he just gave in for once and had a bit of fun, reliving his glory days. I've known plenty of cautious people who have chosen to throw caution to the wind occasionally. Trust me, it happens. None of the prophylactic methods are 100% certain, and I doubt William would throw caution to the wind for anyone but Julia!  You're right that he would have some performance anxiety no matter what: but I think there's a difference between that sort of honeymoon story and a fanfic where William is a child and Julia is basically a mommy teaching him how to use a spoon for the first time. That's where an "entirely virgin theory" would go. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 16:01:57 GMT
I'm wondering why Julia was his personal doctor. She's the coroner. Because there's no way Julia was going to let anyone else treat him. Sounds familiar: "No one comes near my naked buttocks but the wife..."  |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 16:03:17 GMT
Not for one last chance to see him nekkid? Oh I'm sure that and the chance to touch him and imprint herself on him was also a motivating factor. It worked too-was William dreaming of Enid in his bed? Ooh - imprinted - maybe that's a word I was looking for in the Sexual Obsession thread. Whatever she did obviously worked. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 24, 2014 16:05:47 GMT
See, I would think he'd have performance anxiety either way. He's either never done anything like it before, or this is the woman of his dreams, and he's been waiting 7 years for her. That's a lot for any guy to live up to. But still, maybe he had prophylactics on him that time? Or, maybe he used the pull out method? Or, he just gave in for once and had a bit of fun, reliving his glory days. I've known plenty of cautious people who have chosen to throw caution to the wind occasionally. Trust me, it happens. None of the prophylactic methods are 100% certain, and I doubt William would throw caution to the wind for anyone but Julia! You're right that he would have some performance anxiety no matter what: but I think there's a difference between that sort of honeymoon story and a fanfic where William is a child and Julia is basically a mommy teaching him how to use a spoon for the first time. That's where an "entirely virgin theory" would go. But he's still a man! He's not an automaton! Maybe he was trying to relive some of his "glory days" since Anna brings that side of him out and he threw caution to the wind in the heat of the moment. People do it all the time-William's not a perfect robot-he's going to have his stumbles. I guess the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he did sleep with Anna. Anna's a lovely girl, but clearly from a different class, and perhaps she reminded him of the girls he had fun with in his younger days. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 16:07:16 GMT
I will forever be baffled why any viewer believes William is a virgin, and that he and Julia haven't been lovers. The evidence on the show would say otherwise to both these theories IMO. I started leaning that way after watching The Knick episode about how syphilis had become so rampant that there was a "no noses" club in New York. And historically/culturally, there was more support for men as well as women to save themselves for marriage. William would not have wanted to mess up his career with an unplanned pregnancy. So those factors make it possible. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 24, 2014 16:11:20 GMT
But he's still a man! He's not an automaton! Maybe he was trying to relive some of his "glory days" since Anna brings that side of him out and he threw caution to the wind in the heat of the moment. People do it all the time-William's not a perfect robot-he's going to have his stumbles. I guess the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he did sleep with Anna. Anna's a lovely girl, but clearly from a different class, and perhaps she reminded him of the girls he had fun with in his younger days. Maybe drugging William's tea was involved! (Out of William experience). |
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He's either never done anything like it before, or this is the woman of his dreams, and he's been waiting 7 years for her. That's a lot for any guy to live up to. 
