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Post by Hodge on Nov 9, 2014 5:32:12 GMT
Julia should have picked up on William's status when they were in the morgue talking to Dr. Francis. He picked up on things pretty quickly. I love that scene. Both of them were gobsmacked that a relative stranger could see what they were both trying so hard to hide. Yes, wonderful scene, one of my favourites. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 6:07:38 GMT
William explained his rationale in Hangman. Julia was very distressed and was questioning what they do. His answer was clear compartmentalization. Julia was selfish to let herself be talked into staying. She knew why she left in the first place and she knew William still had feelings for her a la Buffalo Shuffle. Yet Julia seems to have gotten over it once she got engaged to Darcy. She could have given these trepidations as the reasons she didn't want to return to the coroners job when Darcy offered her the chance to return, but instead she jumped right back in as if she had been eagerly awaiting the opportunity. I guess there's also the possibility that things had been made uncomfortable for her since the murder case. The wife of the founder (?) of the hospital was going to hang. Perhaps she had already been fired and they didn't tell William that...? Hmm, okay this is my new theory. Julia had lost, or was about to lose her job at the hospital. Darcy was trying to help her start over by moving back to Toronto. The coroner's job was still open to her, and it would have been hard to go elsewhere if she had poor references from Buffalo. Also, while Julia had felt it safe to return to Toronto because she was secured in a relationship with Darcy, and thus William was still technically "free" to find his dream family, a subconscious part of her still wanted William to save her from a bad marriage to Darcy. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 6:13:33 GMT
I don't think coming back was total "selfishness" on Julia's part, though part of her wanted to do it. Darcy more or less pushed her into doing it. She couldn't explain why not without confessing her previous relationship with William, which she wasn't ready to do yet. And perhaps she wasn't sure of William's status yet and thought he might have a girlfriend...? Julia should have picked up on William's status when they were in the morgue talking to Dr. Francis. He picked up on things pretty quickly. William seems to be radiating his feelings about Julia somehow: Callahan and Guillaume pick up on them. At the end of Season 2, Jasper could somehow see William's feelings for Julia, too. I have to wonder how, since William is not one to display is emotions. What is this "tell" that other men can see. Then the next question is: can Julia see it? We say she is selfish for taking the morgue job when William still has feelings for her, but she fled to Buffalo precisely because she couldn't get a read on William's feelings. I'm still trying to decide whether Julia heard Inspector Guillaume hint William should take Julia as his mistress or not.  |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 6:15:16 GMT
Julia should have picked up on William's status when they were in the morgue talking to Dr. Francis. He picked up on things pretty quickly. I felt bad for Dr. Francis in this case: he realized he was being displaced by an "office affair". |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 9, 2014 6:17:12 GMT
Agreed with just about everything that has been said above. In my opinion, season 4 was headed for an epic confrontation between W/J and was slowly, methodically building to William crashing the wedding and snatching Julia from Darcy at the altar-instead, nothing. It was very anti-climactic, and while I can see where this act prolonged the show, it must have been crushing for those shipped W/J and left after season 4.
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 9, 2014 6:21:54 GMT
Julia should have picked up on William's status when they were in the morgue talking to Dr. Francis. He picked up on things pretty quickly. William seems to be radiating his feelings about Julia somehow: Callahan and Guillaume pick up on them. At the end of Season 2, Jasper could somehow see William's feelings for Julia, too. I have to wonder how, since William is not one to display is emotions. What is this "tell" that other men can see. Then the next question is: can Julia see it? We say she is selfish for taking the morgue job when William still has feelings for her, but she fled to Buffalo precisely because she couldn't get a read on William's feelings. I'm still trying to decide whether Julia heard Inspector Guillaume hint William should take Julia as his mistress or not. The gorgeous subtlety to William's character (and YB's genius portrayal) is that while he says nothing that gives his feelings away, his eyes are truly the window to his soul, and an astute observer can easily read him like a book. Plus, there's the little gestures (rubbing her hand with his pinky or thumb) that speak epic volumes. |
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Post by Hodge on Nov 9, 2014 6:49:22 GMT
Julia should have picked up on William's status when they were in the morgue talking to Dr. Francis. He picked up on things pretty quickly. William seems to be radiating his feelings about Julia somehow: Callahan and Guillaume pick up on them. At the end of Season 2, Jasper could somehow see William's feelings for Julia, too. I have to wonder how, since William is not one to display is emotions. What is this "tell" that other men can see. Then the next question is: can Julia see it? We say she is selfish for taking the morgue job when William still has feelings for her, but she fled to Buffalo precisely because she couldn't get a read on William's feelings. I'm still trying to decide whether Julia heard Inspector Guillaume hint William should take Julia as his mistress or not. It's all in the way he looks at her. As Guillaume said he sneaked glances when she wasn't looking. He has a puppy dog face when he looks at her, it may only be fleeting but it's there. His body language is different, I know he doesn't have much but it's there. His feelings somehow radiate from him even through the TV. Not sure Julia can see it all the time but she does see it. On many occasions before she married Darcy she saw his looks and turned away and sighed. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 6:56:15 GMT
Not sure Julia can see it all the time but she does see it. On many occasions before she married Darcy she saw his looks and turned away and sighed. Perhaps Julia can see it, but maybe she doesn't know how to interpret it. Or perhaps she's only just seeing it now. If she did see it before The Tesla Effect, she wouldn't have left, because - as everyone notes - William's feelings for Julia are in those looks.  |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 7:00:30 GMT
The gorgeous subtlety to William's character (and YB's genius portrayal) is that while he says nothing that gives his feelings away, his eyes are truly the window to his soul, and an astute observer can easily read him like a book. Plus, there's the little gestures (rubbing her hand with his pinky or thumb) that speak epic volumes. Is William permitted a lot of hand rubbing in Season 4, though? Have to hand YB the Emmy and the Oscar for some of his facial acting. Seriously unappreciated and actually better than some of his line delivery. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 7:19:31 GMT
Agreed with just about everything that has been said above. In my opinion, season 4 was headed for an epic confrontation between W/J and was slowly, methodically building to William crashing the wedding and snatching Julia from Darcy at the altar-instead, nothing. It was very anti-climactic, and while I can see where this act prolonged the show, it must have been crushing for those shipped W/J and left after season 4. I see it just the opposite. The writers were leading people to expect an epic confrontation, but that would have been a cliche. Instead they pulled a sleight of hand and did something the viewers could never have imagined - they let the wedding take place! At the same time they developed William's character by making him face a horrible moral dilemma, and they set up a pretty interesting arc for Julia's later divorce. If viewer's felt betrayed, I think it's because they could be patient and let story play out. There might have been some people in there who were upset because if Julia married Darcy, she wouldn't be a virgin when she married William. But wait - she already wasn't a virgin. The writers were already telling a complicated story with adult characters. They didn't want to give the audience "the fairy tale" - they wanted to do the completely unexpected instead. I think the MM audience would be a lot happier if they took "expect the unexpected" as their motto and remembered that any "build up" in a good mystery could be a red herring. The writers are trying to entertain us and keep our attention, not do what we blandly expect. Season 4 did not end in an anti-climatic way for me: William had endured an avalanche of crushing blows - the love of his life had married another because he had chosen to do something other than stop the marriage, he had betrayed his own principles and broken the law by letting a murderess go free, he had potentially betrayed his "family" through actions that could get Inspector Brackenreid in trouble, and he had turned in his badge. The season ended on a note of high angst - the possible end of William's career, the end of his moral integrity, the end of his relationship with Julia... Well, I would have tuned in next season to find out what happened! |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Nov 9, 2014 7:30:46 GMT
Agreed with just about everything that has been said above. In my opinion, season 4 was headed for an epic confrontation between W/J and was slowly, methodically building to William crashing the wedding and snatching Julia from Darcy at the altar-instead, nothing. It was very anti-climactic, and while I can see where this act prolonged the show, it must have been crushing for those shipped W/J and left after season 4. I see it just the opposite. The writers were leading people to expect an epic confrontation, but that would have been a cliche. Instead they pulled a sleight of hand and did something the viewers could never have imagined - they let the wedding take place! At the same time they developed William's character by making him face a horrible moral dilemma, and they set up a pretty interesting arc for Julia's later divorce. If viewer's felt betrayed, I think it's because they could be patient and let story play out. There might have been some people in there who were upset because if Julia married Darcy, she wouldn't be a virgin when she married William. But wait - she already wasn't a virgin. The writers were already telling a complicated story with adult characters. They didn't want to give the audience "the fairy tale" - they wanted to do the completely unexpected instead. I think the MM audience would be a lot happier if they took "expect the unexpected" as their motto and remembered that any "build up" in a good mystery could be a red herring. The writers are trying to entertain us and keep our attention, not do what we blandly expect. Season 4 did not end in an anti-climatic way for me: William had endured an avalanche of crushing blows - the love of his life had married another because he had chosen to do something other than stop the marriage, he had betrayed his own principles and broken the law by letting a murderess go free, he had potentially betrayed his "family" through actions that could get Inspector Brackenreid in trouble, and he had turned in his badge. The season ended on a note of high angst - the possible end of William's career, the end of his moral integrity, the end of his relationship with Julia... Well, I would have tuned in next season to find out what happened! I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying how a lot of people who no longer frequent this board could have felt that way-and while as I stated before see why the writers did it, and yes, it did lead to the show lasting longer than it otherwise would, it was still a cruel thing to do to a lot of your fans. I don't disagree with it-it added a nice layer of complexity-but this was a show that wasn't guaranteed to be renewed, and could have left viewers with a most unsatisfying, anti-climactic ending. That was some real cajones on the part of the team there, and Peter Mitchell. BTW, Peter Mitchell didn't start running the show until season 4. I'm not sure who was running it before, or why they left, but it is most intriguing. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 8:27:22 GMT
I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying how a lot of people who no longer frequent this board could have felt that way-and while as I stated before see why the writers did it, and yes, it did lead to the show lasting longer than it otherwise would, it was still a cruel thing to do to a lot of your fans. I don't disagree with it-it added a nice layer of complexity-but this was a show that wasn't guaranteed to be renewed, and could have left viewers with a most satisfying, anti-climactic ending. That was some real cajones on the part of the team there, and Peter Mitchell. BTW, Peter Mitchell didn't start running the show until season 4. I'm not sure who was running it before, or why they left, but it is most intriguing. Thanks for clarifying about Peter Mitchell. I wasn't sure about the timeline from the radio interview. I was surprised he was brought in so late since he seems to be the writer who gets invoked all the time and quoted in articles. I thought he took over in Season 5, which would have reinforced the stylistic split in my mind between the two eras. I could see how the end of Season 4 could lead to a fan "rapture" - there are certainly some angry remarks on the forum about it. I remember CC still being upset about it when I first came here. (Not sure if she has gotten over it yet). I can appreciate how it would have been a lot more anxiety provoking when the show was in danger of cancellation. And then Season 5 reruns for 2 seasons, lol. Anyway, I'm still glad the MM writing team did it, just because it was an unimaginable thing to do. They looked at the "natural" turn of events, and then they chose to do something else. I think that's what makes MM super-cool. |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Nov 9, 2014 19:52:10 GMT
I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying how a lot of people who no longer frequent this board could have felt that way-and while as I stated before see why the writers did it, and yes, it did lead to the show lasting longer than it otherwise would, it was still a cruel thing to do to a lot of your fans. I don't disagree with it-it added a nice layer of complexity-but this was a show that wasn't guaranteed to be renewed, and could have left viewers with a most satisfying, anti-climactic ending. That was some real cajones on the part of the team there, and Peter Mitchell. BTW, Peter Mitchell didn't start running the show until season 4. I'm not sure who was running it before, or why they left, but it is most intriguing. Thanks for clarifying about Peter Mitchell. I wasn't sure about the timeline from the radio interview. I was surprised he was brought in so late since he seems to be the writer who gets invoked all the time and quoted in articles. I thought he took over in Season 5, which would have reinforced the stylistic split in my mind between the two eras. I could see how the end of Season 4 could lead to a fan "rapture" - there are certainly some angry remarks on the forum about it. I remember CC still being upset about it when I first came here. (Not sure if she has gotten over it yet). I can appreciate how it would have been a lot more anxiety provoking when the show was in danger of cancellation. And then Season 5 reruns for 2 seasons, lol. Anyway, I'm still glad the MM writing team did it, just because it was an unimaginable thing to do. They looked at the "natural" turn of events, and then they chose to do something else. I think that's what makes MM super-cool. Yes, I have finally gotten over it now that they are officially married.  No, I got over it awhile ago. But I was really upset with that ending because I suspected that meant the end of Julia's character. Divorce wasn't exactly that easy to obtain like it is nowadays...so I saw no reason for her to be there anymore and I was bummed about that. And indeed, that was the alternate ending, that she was to be written out of the show by telling William that she was happy with her decision and wished him the best.  BTW, the Making of 100 ep thing said Cal Coons was the showrunner for S1 and 2. Don't know who had it for 3 though. |
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Post by snacky on Nov 9, 2014 20:17:45 GMT
se I suspected that meant the end of Julia's character. Divorce wasn't exactly that easy to obtain like it is nowadays...so I saw no reason for her to be there anymore and I was bummed about that. With actors being paid by the day, I can totally see how the default assumption would be the actor got a job elsewhere and was written out of the script. So that doubles the size of the cajones on the part of the writers. (And again might explain the "fan rapture"). But in retrospect, it worked out in a really interesting way. I guess all I can say is I was lucky to have not been on the spot. |
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Post by CosmicCavalcade on Nov 9, 2014 20:20:01 GMT
se I suspected that meant the end of Julia's character. Divorce wasn't exactly that easy to obtain like it is nowadays...so I saw no reason for her to be there anymore and I was bummed about that. With actors being paid by the day, I can totally see how the default assumption would be the actor got a job elsewhere and was written out of the script. So that doubles the size of the cajones on the part of the writers. (And again might explain the "fan rapture"). But in retrospect, it worked out in a really interesting way. I guess all I can say is I was lucky to have not been on the spot. And that was back when we had to wait NINE FREAKING MONTHS FOR THE NEXT SEASON!!!  |
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No, I got over it awhile ago. But I was really upset with that ending because I suspected that meant the end of Julia's character. Divorce wasn't exactly that easy to obtain like it is nowadays...so I saw no reason for her to be there anymore and I was bummed about that. And indeed, that was the alternate ending, that she was to be written out of the show by telling William that she was happy with her decision and wished him the best. 
Jan 30, 2013 21:44:55 GMT
Jan 30, 2013 21:44:55 GMT