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Post by snacky on Sept 20, 2014 4:39:23 GMT
This week Eclair and I finally wound up Season 2. I noticed that though William was a bit nostalgic about Julia, he didn't seem to be dwelling on Julia until she started reciting the Song of Solomon - which would have been considered an "erotic poem" at the time. Shortly thereafter, William fantasizes about kissing Julia. Then he contemplates letting Enid know that he still has "feelings" for Julia. I think he really means he can't stop thinking about kissing her. I'm sure he's thinking romantically along the lines of "star-crossed" lovers. At the same time, I wonder if he ultimately sees in the love triangle mystery a warning that he will eventually betray Enid because all he can think about is getting it on with Julia. Frankly, I don't see how he missed her "crazy eyes" aspect, already.  Then at the start Werewolves we see another man moving in on Julia's territory: Reginald Poundsett. Again William fantasizes about kissing Julia - especially since it's forbidden ("dream Julia" protests they are both involved with other people). This motivates William to break up with Enid. In the following episode, William has to engage with competition from his brother (taller, stronger, and possibly smarter than he is) as well Poundsett. He looks for ways to get an edge on the competition to win Julia back (by stealing the book of poetry, but considering investigating Poundsett). Once William decides he really wants Julia, qualms about her abortion never come into it. Fitting what Julia did - and the fact she didn't regret it - into his world view doesn't seem to be at issue at all anymore. Instead it seems like William just couldn't stop thinking about making out with Julia. I'm not laying any judgment on that - an outlet for his animal passions might just be a necessary complement to the hyper dispassionate persona he had been cultivating all these years. Either that or Julia slipped him a love potion at some point.  |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 20, 2014 15:14:44 GMT
This week Eclair and I finally wound up Season 2. I noticed that though William was a bit nostalgic about Julia, he didn't seem to be dwelling on Julia until she started reciting the Song of Solomon - which would have been considered an "erotic poem" at the time. Shortly thereafter, William fantasizes about kissing Julia. Then he contemplates letting Enid know that he still has "feelings" for Julia. I think he really means he can't stop thinking about kissing her. I'm sure he's thinking romantically along the lines of "star-crossed" lovers. At the same time, I wonder if he ultimately sees in the love triangle mystery a warning that he will eventually betray Enid because all he can think about is getting it on with Julia. Frankly, I don't see how he missed her "crazy eyes" aspect, already. Then at the start Werewolves we see another man moving in on Julia's territory: Reginald Poundsett. Again William fantasizes about kissing Julia - especially since it's forbidden ("dream Julia" protests they are both involved with other people). This motivates William to break up with Enid. In the following episode, William has to engage with competition from his brother (taller, stronger, and possibly smarter than he is) as well Poundsett. He looks for ways to get an edge on the competition to win Julia back (by stealing the book of poetry, but considering investigating Poundsett). Once William decides he really wants Julia, qualms about her abortion never come into it. Fitting what Julia did - and the fact she didn't regret it - into his world view doesn't seem to be at issue at all anymore. Instead it seems like William just couldn't stop thinking about making out with Julia. I'm not laying any judgment on that - an outlet for his animal passions might just be a necessary complement to the hyper dispassionate persona he had been cultivating all these years. Either that or Julia slipped him a love potion at some point. It's a fine theory, but it forgets that he had attempted a reconciliation as well as imagined her in his bed, (Convalesence). William's a sexual being (as much as any typical man) even if he is repressed. I think that's part of his charm, under all that perfect, buttoned up, polished exterior, is a red blooded male. At least that's what I find delicious.  |
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Post by snacky on Sept 20, 2014 17:11:34 GMT
It's a fine theory, but it forgets that he had attempted a reconciliation as well as imagined her in his bed, (Convalesence). William's a sexual being (as much as any typical man) even if he is repressed. I think that's part of his charm, under all that perfect, buttoned up, polished exterior, is a red blooded male. At least that's what I find delicious. "Sexual" is probably the wrong word, but my brain has been blanking on the one I want - maybe it's more like "sensual". It just seemed to me that this was the point of comparison between Julia and Enid for him. Enid played all the roles: wife, mother, families. She made pot roast. But she's almost a cypher of a woman to him. His desire for Julia is very sensual in comparison. I think Convalescence would actually be part of the argument since that fantasy places Julia in his bed. Julia has invaded his imagination almost the way Eva Pearce would in Murdoch in Ladies Wear. It makes me wonder if Julia recognized Eva's tricks so easily because she used them, and they worked! This also reminded me of medieval legends of love potions like Tristan and Isolde where the noble knight suddenly can't get his mind off the damsel, and he can't figure out why, lol. Now I'm wondering if that's actually a thing. Julia made a comment about the way people smell once. She knows a thing or two about chemistry (the science kind). Perhaps she adds a little something phermonal to her perfume on special occasions. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 3:51:38 GMT
After watching The Murdoch Identity again with Eclair, I'm finding it weird that if William chose Julia over Enid on the basis of Julia's sensual qualities, why is he more comfortable sensually expressing himself with Anna? He has certainly never bestowed the "seductive" look he gives Anna upon Julia unless it was somewhere off screen during Season 7. Despite his dreams being sensual, William continued to court Julia like a proper gentleman. leaving Julia ultimately uncertain of his feelings during Season 3 (as we've discussed ad nauseum). The only reason I'm bringing it up again is that I just realized that he seemed to choose Julia over Enid based on her touchy-feeliness...but then he didn't reach out and grab her, lol! |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 21, 2014 4:34:03 GMT
After watching The Murdoch Identity again with Eclair, I'm finding it weird that if William chose Julia over Enid on the basis of Julia's sensual qualities, why is he more comfortable sensually expressing himself with Anna? He has certainly never bestowed the "seductive" look he gives Anna upon Julia unless it was somewhere off screen during Season 7. Despite his dreams being sensual, William continued to court Julia like a proper gentleman. leaving Julia ultimately uncertain of his feelings during Season 3 (as we've discussed ad nauseum). The only reason I'm bringing it up again is that I just realized that he seemed to choose Julia over Enid based on her touchy-feeliness...but then he didn't reach out and grab her, lol! Anna's seen the William that's under all that repression, he doesn't need to hide it from her. I'm not sure why he needs to hide it from Julia though. Are William's dreams sensual? The only sensual one we've seen, and I think that was a representation of what he told Julia, was the one with Eva Pearce. We've seen him dream about a wedding which definitely wasn't sensual but I don't think we've seen any other dreams to really say that. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 5:06:51 GMT
Anna's seen the William that's under all that repression, he doesn't need to hide it from her. I'm not sure why he needs to hide it from Julia though. Are William's dreams sensual? The only sensual one we've seen, and I think that was a representation of what he told Julia, was the one with Eva Pearce. We've seen him dream about a wedding which definitely wasn't sensual but I don't think we've seen any other dreams to really say that. Well the reason I started this thread is the triggers that seem to make William think of Julia and ultimately choose her over Enid are all sensual: - in Convalescence he imagines Julia in bed. - William breaks up with Enid because he gets stuck thinking about Julia after she starts reciting Song of Solomon - an "erotic poem" - and that reminds him of kissing Julia. - in Werewolves he's still having kissing fantasies about Julia. We never see one of those about Enid. William seems moved by talk of star-crossed lovers and destiny, but what seems to be going on in his mind is a pretty physical experience of Julia. If he wasn't able to renew an actual relationship with Julia, wouldn't it seem like he was obsessed? |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 21, 2014 15:19:06 GMT
Anna's seen the William that's under all that repression, he doesn't need to hide it from her. I'm not sure why he needs to hide it from Julia though. Are William's dreams sensual? The only sensual one we've seen, and I think that was a representation of what he told Julia, was the one with Eva Pearce. We've seen him dream about a wedding which definitely wasn't sensual but I don't think we've seen any other dreams to really say that. Well the reason I started this thread is the triggers that seem to make William think of Julia and ultimately choose her over Enid are all sensual: - in Convalescence he imagines Julia in bed. - William breaks up with Enid because he gets stuck thinking about Julia after she starts reciting Song of Solomon - an "erotic poem" - and that reminds him of kissing Julia. - in Werewolves he's still having kissing fantasies about Julia. We never see one of those about Enid. William seems moved by talk of star-crossed lovers and destiny, but what seems to be going on in his mind is a pretty physical experience of Julia. If he wasn't able to renew an actual relationship with Julia, wouldn't it seem like he was obsessed? But he is obsessed. |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 21, 2014 15:40:44 GMT
After watching The Murdoch Identity again with Eclair, I'm finding it weird that if William chose Julia over Enid on the basis of Julia's sensual qualities, why is he more comfortable sensually expressing himself with Anna? He has certainly never bestowed the "seductive" look he gives Anna upon Julia unless it was somewhere off screen during Season 7. Despite his dreams being sensual, William continued to court Julia like a proper gentleman. leaving Julia ultimately uncertain of his feelings during Season 3 (as we've discussed ad nauseum). The only reason I'm bringing it up again is that I just realized that he seemed to choose Julia over Enid based on her touchy-feeliness...but then he didn't reach out and grab her, lol! Anna's seen the William that's under all that repression, he doesn't need to hide it from her. I'm not sure why he needs to hide it from Julia though. Are William's dreams sensual? The only sensual one we've seen, and I think that was a representation of what he told Julia, was the one with Eva Pearce. We've seen him dream about a wedding which definitely wasn't sensual but I don't think we've seen any other dreams to really say that. And this frustrates me! We knew William thought about sex (various fantasies) and even a sex dream in season 6, but not with Julia, the woman he wants to marry! Why is this? It doesn't make sense to me! |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 21, 2014 16:38:09 GMT
And this frustrates me! We knew William thought about sex (various fantasies) and even a sex dream in season 6, but not with Julia, the woman he wants to marry! Why is this? It doesn't make sense to me! William's fantasies never went beyond kissing. He did have the dominatrix Julia 'dream' when chloroformed but I think we can discount that as it's another 'out of William' experience. The only sexual fantasy was Julia's 'mating dance' fantasy. I'm not sure we can say that William usually has sexual dreams, Eva Pearce invaded his dreams in a way I think he hasn't experienced before, perhaps that's why he went to see 'Dr. Ogden'. On a reality point of view, perhaps they keep down any sexual content as the show is aimed at a varied audience. Let's face it there aren't many shows out there that you can watch with your grandmother and your grandchild. Btw, did anyone else note that MM is seen in Iran. I wonder if they do a lot of editing. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 17:49:40 GMT
Well the reason I started this thread is the triggers that seem to make William think of Julia and ultimately choose her over Enid are all sensual: - in Convalescence he imagines Julia in bed. - William breaks up with Enid because he gets stuck thinking about Julia after she starts reciting Song of Solomon - an "erotic poem" - and that reminds him of kissing Julia. - in Werewolves he's still having kissing fantasies about Julia. We never see one of those about Enid. William seems moved by talk of star-crossed lovers and destiny, but what seems to be going on in his mind is a pretty physical experience of Julia. If he wasn't able to renew an actual relationship with Julia, wouldn't it seem like he was obsessed? But he is obsessed. I mean he would have been in a sick way.  Now he's just preoccupied because he's in love with her.  |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 18:01:59 GMT
Anna's seen the William that's under all that repression, he doesn't need to hide it from her. I'm not sure why he needs to hide it from Julia though. Are William's dreams sensual? The only sensual one we've seen, and I think that was a representation of what he told Julia, was the one with Eva Pearce. We've seen him dream about a wedding which definitely wasn't sensual but I don't think we've seen any other dreams to really say that. And this frustrates me! We knew William thought about sex (various fantasies) and even a sex dream in season 6, but not with Julia, the woman he wants to marry! Why is this? It doesn't make sense to me! If you were right about the lingerie being imagined, then I think that's a clue William does have "off stage" fantasies about Julia. If the content of his past fantasies mean anything, they do a lot more in his head than they do in reality. So much so, he may even forget what they aren't doing in reality! But I do find it interesting that the basis of William's choice seemed so frankly sensual - almost primal - yet his approach to Julia has been exactly the same as his approach to Enid. We've never seen him look at Julia like he looked at Anna before he started trying to unlace her corset. He's not going after what he chose Julia for. Part of it might be because Julia brings it to him, though. Then the question is how much is she bringing to him. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 18:28:27 GMT
On a reality point of view, perhaps they keep down any sexual content as the show is aimed at a varied audience. Let's face it there aren't many shows out there that you can watch with your grandmother and your grandchild. Btw, did anyone else note that MM is seen in Iran. I wonder if they do a lot of editing. Yeah that's awesome! World peace could be built on a foundation of fandom chat about MM hahahaha! If they do have to make some cuts, I doubt it's much. I wonder what they did about the abortion story line, though...? This "audience" factor is why I choose to work with the hints the show gives us. I interpret kissing/lingerie fantasies to mean there are probably more explicit ones occurring "off screen". Another thought: perhaps there are fewer fantasies of that ilk in later seasons because William is getting more of the real thing? But again, because of the type of show this is, that has to occur off screen. I think there should be some fan fodder to at least compete with the Anna scene, though, or else people will go on forever thinking William is more comfortable and/or has more of an "animal attraction" to Anna. After investing 8 years into building up to a wedding, that's kind of dumb. |
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Post by Hodge on Sept 21, 2014 18:48:02 GMT
On a reality point of view, perhaps they keep down any sexual content as the show is aimed at a varied audience. Let's face it there aren't many shows out there that you can watch with your grandmother and your grandchild. Btw, did anyone else note that MM is seen in Iran. I wonder if they do a lot of editing. Yeah that's awesome! World peace could be built on a foundation of fandom chat about MM hahahaha! If they do have to make some cuts, I doubt it's much. I wonder what they did about the abortion story line, though...? This "audience" factor is why I choose to work with the hints the show gives us. I interpret kissing/lingerie fantasies to mean there are probably more explicit ones occurring "off screen". Another thought: perhaps there are fewer fantasies of that ilk in later seasons because William is getting more of the real thing? But again, because of the type of show this is, that has to occur off screen. I think there should be some fan fodder to at least compete with the Anna scene, though, or else people will go on forever thinking William is more comfortable and/or has more of an "animal attraction" to Anna. After investing 8 years into building up to a wedding, that's kind of dumb. My problem with thinking that there's something 'off screen' is I'm just too literal to believe it. It's not that I don't have an imagination, trust me my imagination can and does run wild, but I usually take TV shows at face value. William's animal attraction to Anna happened because he wasn't himself. If we could get him into a situation with Julia where he wasn't himself I suspect we'd see the same behaviour if not more. Actually, we have seen it in TGM and look where it got him. |
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Post by snacky on Sept 21, 2014 19:19:37 GMT
My problem with thinking that there's something 'off screen' is I'm just too literal to believe it. It's not that I don't have an imagination, trust me my imagination can and does run wild, but I usually take TV shows at face value. William's animal attraction to Anna happened because he wasn't himself. If we could get him into a situation with Julia where he wasn't himself I suspect we'd see the same behaviour if not more. Actually, we have seen it in TGM and look where it got him. Cue the "Laughing Gas Incident"... |
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Post by Fallenbelle on Sept 22, 2014 13:51:17 GMT
And this frustrates me! We knew William thought about sex (various fantasies) and even a sex dream in season 6, but not with Julia, the woman he wants to marry! Why is this? It doesn't make sense to me! William's fantasies never went beyond kissing. He did have the dominatrix Julia 'dream' when chloroformed but I think we can discount that as it's another 'out of William' experience. The only sexual fantasy was Julia's 'mating dance' fantasy. I'm not sure we can say that William usually has sexual dreams, Eva Pearce invaded his dreams in a way I think he hasn't experienced before, perhaps that's why he went to see 'Dr. Ogden'. On a reality point of view, perhaps they keep down any sexual content as the show is aimed at a varied audience. Let's face it there aren't many shows out there that you can watch with your grandmother and your grandchild. Btw, did anyone else note that MM is seen in Iran. I wonder if they do a lot of editing. I would think scandalous scenes like Julia pulling off the stockings on her bathing costume would certainly be on the editing room floor in Iran! Keeping the sexual content down seems like a viable option, but they've shown others in sexual situations or at least described them-why not hint at that a couple of times for W/J? I'm sure it's meant to keep us guessing, but it does raise the question of whether or not William can unleash the beast on demand on the wedding night? I'm worried that he's been on his best behavior for so long around Julia, he can't be anything else. Thinks about writing disappointing wedding night fic. |
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